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	<title>Comments on: Rockridge neighborhood patrol</title>
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	<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/</link>
	<description>Katy Murphy&#039;s blog on Oakland schools</description>
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		<title>By: Public school fan</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16949</link>
		<dc:creator>Public school fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 16:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[ParentofClaremont:

I really feel for you and your child.  Although it may sound naive, you and other caring parents at the school need to start inundating both OUSD and your school board representative with phone calls and emails about the situation and what needs to be changed (you might also start doing the same with the candidates for your school board seat).  It sounds like in your opinion, some pretty easy fixes would certainly start to help the situation.

You (and many other parents at the school) need to contact someone every single day so that both OUSD and your school board rep dread seeing your email address and your phone number come up.  (I would also imagine that your principal would appreciate the support and effort as well).  Otherwise, nothing will ever change.  And the way it stands now, CMS is headed for trouble of many different kinds.

Sadly, in my experience, only the loudest most vociferous squeaky wheels get the oil from OUSD.  If you don&#039;t complain loudly and often and with enough other people supporting you, then the status quo remains.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ParentofClaremont:</p>
<p>I really feel for you and your child.  Although it may sound naive, you and other caring parents at the school need to start inundating both OUSD and your school board representative with phone calls and emails about the situation and what needs to be changed (you might also start doing the same with the candidates for your school board seat).  It sounds like in your opinion, some pretty easy fixes would certainly start to help the situation.</p>
<p>You (and many other parents at the school) need to contact someone every single day so that both OUSD and your school board rep dread seeing your email address and your phone number come up.  (I would also imagine that your principal would appreciate the support and effort as well).  Otherwise, nothing will ever change.  And the way it stands now, CMS is headed for trouble of many different kinds.</p>
<p>Sadly, in my experience, only the loudest most vociferous squeaky wheels get the oil from OUSD.  If you don&#8217;t complain loudly and often and with enough other people supporting you, then the status quo remains.</p>
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		<title>By: oakie</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16950</link>
		<dc:creator>oakie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 16:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/#comment-16950</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Parentofclaremont,
It is painful to read your words. I understand your laments and am in awe of your optimism. I am fully aware that some of the generalities about CMS (including mine) do an injustice to many of the students and faculty/staff who are trying heroically to do what all this money is being spent in OUSD to do: educate kids, and what is actually done in most other school districts statewide.

Remember: OUSD gets $8,500 per student per year (this will go down to $8,000 with the budget cuts coming next year).

But think about it: for a class of 30, that&#039;s more than a Quarter Million Bucks. So imagine you were Emperor: you could pick out the faculty and staff you wanted to retain (but NOT the students, except you did have the right of refusal to accept any misbehaving students being dumped on you). And you could summarily let go of the rest.

Imagine that. Do you think you could have a working,, functional effective school and accomplish educating kids with great results? Well, I say $8,500 is plenty of taxpayers money necessary to do that, so I&#039;d EXPECT you&#039;d be able to do that or I&#039;d fire you as Emperor, and get someone else who could! Because I think it is entirely doable.

And should be done. It shouldn&#039;t be just a thought experiment. But is a fantasy. Why? Because the power centers that ARE OUSD (school board, so-called administration, teacher&#039;s union, janitor&#039;s union, plumber&#039;s union, etc.) clearly do not have the welfare of the students as their top priority.

Oh, they wouldn&#039;t MIND if it happens, but empirical evidence demonstrates that is clearly not the most important thing to them.

As to those misbehaving students that could not find a school willing to take them, they need something very very different, and that should be provided. Separate from schools that function to educate the students who are ready to learn.

But I would guess that the number of misbehaving students will shrink over time under this regimen when their parents see that the school system DOES work for the students who do behave. THAT is how you establish policies that result in a shrinkage in the number of problem students. I would think that is everyone&#039;s goal.

I look at this dysfunctional system, where at a school like CMS a handful of misbehaving students and ineffective paid adult staff hold hostage all the students ready to learn, staff capable of being effective at creating a quality education to the students, and a neighborhood that has demonstrated patience and tolerance but are &quot;up to here&quot; with the current situation. If the school does not change, I will work getting a neighborhood petition to put CMS at the top of the inevitable list necessary for a failing district with declining student population and a need to close more schools.

I am very sympathetic to you, Parentofclaremont, but I am also realistic and see a system that requires radical change and anything less is simply rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. I am sorry. I believe as much as others here in public education, but I am not tolerant of failure funded  with our tax money, nor the ongoing waste of human lives because of the dysfunctional educational system we have in Oakland that does nothing for the most needy in our midst...while adults collecting OUSD paychecks continue to play the fiddle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Parentofclaremont,<br />
It is painful to read your words. I understand your laments and am in awe of your optimism. I am fully aware that some of the generalities about CMS (including mine) do an injustice to many of the students and faculty/staff who are trying heroically to do what all this money is being spent in OUSD to do: educate kids, and what is actually done in most other school districts statewide.</p>
<p>Remember: OUSD gets $8,500 per student per year (this will go down to $8,000 with the budget cuts coming next year).</p>
<p>But think about it: for a class of 30, that&#8217;s more than a Quarter Million Bucks. So imagine you were Emperor: you could pick out the faculty and staff you wanted to retain (but NOT the students, except you did have the right of refusal to accept any misbehaving students being dumped on you). And you could summarily let go of the rest.</p>
<p>Imagine that. Do you think you could have a working,, functional effective school and accomplish educating kids with great results? Well, I say $8,500 is plenty of taxpayers money necessary to do that, so I&#8217;d EXPECT you&#8217;d be able to do that or I&#8217;d fire you as Emperor, and get someone else who could! Because I think it is entirely doable.</p>
<p>And should be done. It shouldn&#8217;t be just a thought experiment. But is a fantasy. Why? Because the power centers that ARE OUSD (school board, so-called administration, teacher&#8217;s union, janitor&#8217;s union, plumber&#8217;s union, etc.) clearly do not have the welfare of the students as their top priority.</p>
<p>Oh, they wouldn&#8217;t MIND if it happens, but empirical evidence demonstrates that is clearly not the most important thing to them.</p>
<p>As to those misbehaving students that could not find a school willing to take them, they need something very very different, and that should be provided. Separate from schools that function to educate the students who are ready to learn.</p>
<p>But I would guess that the number of misbehaving students will shrink over time under this regimen when their parents see that the school system DOES work for the students who do behave. THAT is how you establish policies that result in a shrinkage in the number of problem students. I would think that is everyone&#8217;s goal.</p>
<p>I look at this dysfunctional system, where at a school like CMS a handful of misbehaving students and ineffective paid adult staff hold hostage all the students ready to learn, staff capable of being effective at creating a quality education to the students, and a neighborhood that has demonstrated patience and tolerance but are &#8220;up to here&#8221; with the current situation. If the school does not change, I will work getting a neighborhood petition to put CMS at the top of the inevitable list necessary for a failing district with declining student population and a need to close more schools.</p>
<p>I am very sympathetic to you, Parentofclaremont, but I am also realistic and see a system that requires radical change and anything less is simply rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. I am sorry. I believe as much as others here in public education, but I am not tolerant of failure funded  with our tax money, nor the ongoing waste of human lives because of the dysfunctional educational system we have in Oakland that does nothing for the most needy in our midst&#8230;while adults collecting OUSD paychecks continue to play the fiddle.</p>
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		<title>By: Parentofclaremont</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16948</link>
		<dc:creator>Parentofclaremont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 06:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/#comment-16948</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a parent of a high achieving Claremont Student, I just want to say that there are really great kids(including neighborhood kids from involved/concerned parents - whose kids score advanced on the Star tests)mixed in with a large handful of bad students. Claremont&#039;s Principal has a worthless Vice Principal, a horrible counselor, a less than stellar Clerical staff and 1 working security guard (although they have 2 present). The Principal tries hard to meet our (parents/neighbors) expectations but quite frankly something needs to be done to give him the support he needs on campus.  I am surprised he isn&#039;t so burnt out and so overwhelmed that he high tails it out of there.  Another part of the problem is that for every student that gets DHP&#039;d(expelled) out of Claremont, another student is DHP&#039;d from elsewhere into CMS.  The revolving door syndrome.  The answer is not to close CMS, the answer is to determine how to improve the administrative support team, change enrollment criteria, and get rid of the riff raff.

The problem is that when you drive by the school, you get an impression that doesn&#039;t fairly represent everything about the school.  There are great teachers, involved parents and a large (and believe it or not growing) number of students who get a great education.  Inside the school these children are not affected by the likes of these unruly children (with parents just as unruly).  It is true to say that these children act based on how they are treated in their neighborhoods/homes.  They have no morals, no respect for authority and not a care for anyone but themselves.  Unfortunatley for CMS, these students, give CMS a BAD NAME.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a parent of a high achieving Claremont Student, I just want to say that there are really great kids(including neighborhood kids from involved/concerned parents &#8211; whose kids score advanced on the Star tests)mixed in with a large handful of bad students. Claremont&#8217;s Principal has a worthless Vice Principal, a horrible counselor, a less than stellar Clerical staff and 1 working security guard (although they have 2 present). The Principal tries hard to meet our (parents/neighbors) expectations but quite frankly something needs to be done to give him the support he needs on campus.  I am surprised he isn&#8217;t so burnt out and so overwhelmed that he high tails it out of there.  Another part of the problem is that for every student that gets DHP&#8217;d(expelled) out of Claremont, another student is DHP&#8217;d from elsewhere into CMS.  The revolving door syndrome.  The answer is not to close CMS, the answer is to determine how to improve the administrative support team, change enrollment criteria, and get rid of the riff raff.</p>
<p>The problem is that when you drive by the school, you get an impression that doesn&#8217;t fairly represent everything about the school.  There are great teachers, involved parents and a large (and believe it or not growing) number of students who get a great education.  Inside the school these children are not affected by the likes of these unruly children (with parents just as unruly).  It is true to say that these children act based on how they are treated in their neighborhoods/homes.  They have no morals, no respect for authority and not a care for anyone but themselves.  Unfortunatley for CMS, these students, give CMS a BAD NAME.</p>
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		<title>By: Caroline</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16947</link>
		<dc:creator>Caroline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 17:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/#comment-16947</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would say the numbers speak for themselves, even if some stubborn defenders refuse to hear them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say the numbers speak for themselves, even if some stubborn defenders refuse to hear them.</p>
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		<title>By: oakie</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16946</link>
		<dc:creator>oakie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 15:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/#comment-16946</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Caroline,
I stated that a KIPP school in LA was falsely accused by a teacher&#039;s union leader that the school was cherry picking students, and this guy claimed that was the reason the school performed so much better than the district run schools. 60 Minutes investigated to show that to be false, in that case.

With regard to KIPP Bridge, you present data about student demographics. I did not claim the date to be false (although it might be, I don&#039;t know).

That is not proof that the school &quot;got rid&quot; of certain students. If the data are accurate, that does not prove your accusation. There are many reasons parents pull their kids out of any particular situation, and I won&#039;t speculate as to why these parents did, which is what you are doing. But I will say that all you have done is state an assertion--that the school &#039;got rid&#039; of unwanted students, and that is not proof. And since suspension is one of the logical tools for pushing misbehaving students out of a school, then KIPP Bridge&#039;s low suspension rate, plus evidence of another KIPP school being falsely charged with exactly your assertion, is a smell test of whether your assertion might be credible--and even then, no proof has been offered that I see.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caroline,<br />
I stated that a KIPP school in LA was falsely accused by a teacher&#8217;s union leader that the school was cherry picking students, and this guy claimed that was the reason the school performed so much better than the district run schools. 60 Minutes investigated to show that to be false, in that case.</p>
<p>With regard to KIPP Bridge, you present data about student demographics. I did not claim the date to be false (although it might be, I don&#8217;t know).</p>
<p>That is not proof that the school &#8220;got rid&#8221; of certain students. If the data are accurate, that does not prove your accusation. There are many reasons parents pull their kids out of any particular situation, and I won&#8217;t speculate as to why these parents did, which is what you are doing. But I will say that all you have done is state an assertion&#8211;that the school &#8216;got rid&#8217; of unwanted students, and that is not proof. And since suspension is one of the logical tools for pushing misbehaving students out of a school, then KIPP Bridge&#8217;s low suspension rate, plus evidence of another KIPP school being falsely charged with exactly your assertion, is a smell test of whether your assertion might be credible&#8211;and even then, no proof has been offered that I see.</p>
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		<title>By: Caroline</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16942</link>
		<dc:creator>Caroline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 23:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/#comment-16942</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m working on a new project, a &quot;don&#039;t-call-it-a-blog&quot; forum on www.examiner.com . They&#039;re doing what they simply call Examiners on different topics, and mine is San Francisco schools. It&#039;s been up and running for about three hours now. One of the posts is about school violence, linking to and quoting Oakland&#039;s Perimeter Primate commentary on the issue:

http://tinyurl.com/5yb3aa]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m working on a new project, a &#8220;don&#8217;t-call-it-a-blog&#8221; forum on <a href="http://www.examiner.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.examiner.com</a> . They&#8217;re doing what they simply call Examiners on different topics, and mine is San Francisco schools. It&#8217;s been up and running for about three hours now. One of the posts is about school violence, linking to and quoting Oakland&#8217;s Perimeter Primate commentary on the issue:</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/5yb3aa" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/5yb3aa</a></p>
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		<title>By: Caroline</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16943</link>
		<dc:creator>Caroline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 19:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/#comment-16943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oakie, it&#039;s not a &quot;false&quot; charge about KIPP. I simply researched the publicly available numbers.

What would your explanation be for their getting rid of nearly 4/5 of their African-American boys between grades 5 and 8 (FALL of 8th grade -- as noted, we don&#039;t even know how many of the remaining tiny number made it through 8th-grade graduation)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oakie, it&#8217;s not a &#8220;false&#8221; charge about KIPP. I simply researched the publicly available numbers.</p>
<p>What would your explanation be for their getting rid of nearly 4/5 of their African-American boys between grades 5 and 8 (FALL of 8th grade &#8212; as noted, we don&#8217;t even know how many of the remaining tiny number made it through 8th-grade graduation)?</p>
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		<title>By: oakie</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16944</link>
		<dc:creator>oakie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 16:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/#comment-16944</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And searching further down that list, Lincoln Elementary (mentioned earlier, serving one of the most underprivileged economic demographic in the city plus with ESL at near 100% of the student population) had 2 Suspensions out of a population of 609. Lincoln&#039;s academic scores are right up there and sometimes better performance than Hillcrest and Chabot, schools with the absolute highest demographics in the city (in some areas superior household income and academic achievement to Piedmont). So throw out those false assumptions about how economic status causes poor academic achievement, because we have the results in this city to disprove it. And as far as I can tell, Lincoln has absolutely no more money than any of the numerous poor performing/failing schools in OUSD. And the teaches are paid no better. QED]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And searching further down that list, Lincoln Elementary (mentioned earlier, serving one of the most underprivileged economic demographic in the city plus with ESL at near 100% of the student population) had 2 Suspensions out of a population of 609. Lincoln&#8217;s academic scores are right up there and sometimes better performance than Hillcrest and Chabot, schools with the absolute highest demographics in the city (in some areas superior household income and academic achievement to Piedmont). So throw out those false assumptions about how economic status causes poor academic achievement, because we have the results in this city to disprove it. And as far as I can tell, Lincoln has absolutely no more money than any of the numerous poor performing/failing schools in OUSD. And the teaches are paid no better. QED</p>
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		<title>By: oakie</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16945</link>
		<dc:creator>oakie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 16:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/#comment-16945</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is interesting information available on Suspension Rates (for violence or drugs) at

http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/suspensions/?appSession=4037426833213&amp;RecordID=&amp;PageID=2&amp;PrevPageID=1&amp;cpipage=4&amp;CPISortType=&amp;CPIorderBy=

[Warning: I take this date with a grain of salt. School Principals who are very dedicated to minimize drugs and violence will no doubt use suspension as a tool far more often than a cynical principal with a strong eye toward public opinion without regard to the effect on the student&#039;s well being. Perhaps that&#039;s why Piedmont Elementary has such a high suspension rate, which became very public after that notorious incident where a 5th grader had his skull cracked open by an older student while on school grounds.)

CMS is at the top (bad) spot on the list: #9 with 144 Suspensions with 428 Students, for a ratio of 34%.

Another school KIPP Bridge, highly denigrated in the comments above for &quot;actively weeding out&quot; the bad apples to improve student scores for the school, had only 5 Suspensions out of a student population of 248.

Hm. The smell test wonders: how could they be weeding out the bad apples if they are not using suspension as the initial step of pushing out the bad kids? Hm. Doesn&#039;t seem consistent to me. I know of another example, from 60 Minutes, where a KIPP school was falsely charged with this exact same claim (by the LA teacher&#039;s union). Hm: A pattern? That passes the smell test.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is interesting information available on Suspension Rates (for violence or drugs) at</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/suspensions/?appSession=4037426833213&#038;RecordID=&#038;PageID=2&#038;PrevPageID=1&#038;cpipage=4&#038;CPISortType=&#038;CPIorderBy=" rel="nofollow">http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/suspensions/?appSession=4037426833213&#038;RecordID=&#038;PageID=2&#038;PrevPageID=1&#038;cpipage=4&#038;CPISortType=&#038;CPIorderBy=</a></p>
<p>[Warning: I take this date with a grain of salt. School Principals who are very dedicated to minimize drugs and violence will no doubt use suspension as a tool far more often than a cynical principal with a strong eye toward public opinion without regard to the effect on the student&#8217;s well being. Perhaps that&#8217;s why Piedmont Elementary has such a high suspension rate, which became very public after that notorious incident where a 5th grader had his skull cracked open by an older student while on school grounds.)</p>
<p>CMS is at the top (bad) spot on the list: #9 with 144 Suspensions with 428 Students, for a ratio of 34%.</p>
<p>Another school KIPP Bridge, highly denigrated in the comments above for &#8220;actively weeding out&#8221; the bad apples to improve student scores for the school, had only 5 Suspensions out of a student population of 248.</p>
<p>Hm. The smell test wonders: how could they be weeding out the bad apples if they are not using suspension as the initial step of pushing out the bad kids? Hm. Doesn&#8217;t seem consistent to me. I know of another example, from 60 Minutes, where a KIPP school was falsely charged with this exact same claim (by the LA teacher&#8217;s union). Hm: A pattern? That passes the smell test.</p>
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		<title>By: Nextset</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/comment-page-2/#comment-16941</link>
		<dc:creator>Nextset</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 02:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2008/05/09/rockridge-neighborhood-patrol/#comment-16941</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sharon is right.

And as far as racial disparity in school discipline: So what. On the first day of class I could line all of them up and tell them that before I would allow an out-of-control situation with the students I&#039;d wipe out any group or groups that won&#039;t come to heel. I don&#039;t care about racial disparity, and they can take that to the bank. (Actually I do care a little bit but I wouldn&#039;t tell the students that)

And I don&#039;t expect racial similarities in discipline any more than bastardy rates. And I think there is a connection.  Too bad, So sad.  I&#039;d do what I reasonably can to ameliorate the situation but I just don&#039;t expect to have identical suspension/expulsion rates between the races. The groups are different with different interests, agendas, puberty onsets, aggressiveness, etc, etc.  You try to communicate expectations in ways that they can&#039;t ignore and do whatever you can think of to communicate.  But if you have a behavior problem you deal with it or the principal must be replaced with someone else who can.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sharon is right.</p>
<p>And as far as racial disparity in school discipline: So what. On the first day of class I could line all of them up and tell them that before I would allow an out-of-control situation with the students I&#8217;d wipe out any group or groups that won&#8217;t come to heel. I don&#8217;t care about racial disparity, and they can take that to the bank. (Actually I do care a little bit but I wouldn&#8217;t tell the students that)</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t expect racial similarities in discipline any more than bastardy rates. And I think there is a connection.  Too bad, So sad.  I&#8217;d do what I reasonably can to ameliorate the situation but I just don&#8217;t expect to have identical suspension/expulsion rates between the races. The groups are different with different interests, agendas, puberty onsets, aggressiveness, etc, etc.  You try to communicate expectations in ways that they can&#8217;t ignore and do whatever you can think of to communicate.  But if you have a behavior problem you deal with it or the principal must be replaced with someone else who can.</p>
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