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	<title>Comments on: Test score gains: more knowledge or better prep?</title>
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	<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/</link>
	<description>Katy Murphy&#039;s blog on Oakland schools</description>
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		<title>By: Innovations in Education - Knowledge Management &#124; 6 World Education Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21988</link>
		<dc:creator>Innovations in Education - Knowledge Management &#124; 6 World Education Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Test measure gains: some-more knowledge or softened prep? - The Education &#8230; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Test measure gains: some-more knowledge or softened prep? &#8211; The Education &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sharon</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21987</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21987</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nextset: You&#039;ll appreciate hearing that students who attended Bret Harte Junior High in the late 1960&#039;s also wax poetic about OUSD&#039;s cinnamon rolls. A few years ago, I was involved with hosting that school&#039;s 75th anniversary and heard all about those rolls from a number of alumni. Wish I had been there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nextset: You&#8217;ll appreciate hearing that students who attended Bret Harte Junior High in the late 1960&#8242;s also wax poetic about OUSD&#8217;s cinnamon rolls. A few years ago, I was involved with hosting that school&#8217;s 75th anniversary and heard all about those rolls from a number of alumni. Wish I had been there.</p>
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		<title>By: Nextset</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21986</link>
		<dc:creator>Nextset</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alice:  Those cinnamon rolls were so large two people could share them. They were hot out of the oven at 7am and dripping with butter. I&#039;m sure they served other things in the morning but all I can remember was the cinnamon rolls. My Biology teacher was black also, she was a postgrad (MS/PhD?) student from UC Berkeley. Very glamorous and tougher than we were used to in our regular school. Absolutely no false praise from her, no unearned anything. (We worked hard to get recognized..) After all-white teachers for 10 years I was really pretty happy with the food and the teaching staff at Oakland Tech. Nobody was goofing off even in the typing classes (it was seriously discouraged).

I wish Oakland Tech was still operating all this today - maybe they are, I don&#039;t know. I doubt it. I will remember those summer school classes as being what a large Urban School should be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alice:  Those cinnamon rolls were so large two people could share them. They were hot out of the oven at 7am and dripping with butter. I&#8217;m sure they served other things in the morning but all I can remember was the cinnamon rolls. My Biology teacher was black also, she was a postgrad (MS/PhD?) student from UC Berkeley. Very glamorous and tougher than we were used to in our regular school. Absolutely no false praise from her, no unearned anything. (We worked hard to get recognized..) After all-white teachers for 10 years I was really pretty happy with the food and the teaching staff at Oakland Tech. Nobody was goofing off even in the typing classes (it was seriously discouraged).</p>
<p>I wish Oakland Tech was still operating all this today &#8211; maybe they are, I don&#8217;t know. I doubt it. I will remember those summer school classes as being what a large Urban School should be.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Weinberg</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21985</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Weinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cole Middle School and Peralta Creek Middle School, both of which appear to be being phased out, had very large test score gains.  That also happened when Lowell Middle School was closed.  Is there anyone familiar with those schools who can explain the gains made by schools that the district decided needed to be closed?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cole Middle School and Peralta Creek Middle School, both of which appear to be being phased out, had very large test score gains.  That also happened when Lowell Middle School was closed.  Is there anyone familiar with those schools who can explain the gains made by schools that the district decided needed to be closed?</p>
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		<title>By: Alice</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21984</link>
		<dc:creator>Alice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 00:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nextset, That was my experience too with the exception of the large Black Lady in the kitchen.  Discipline is up to the person heading the ckassroom.  It is my experience if you present yourself as an adult, nit a &quot;friend&quot;  the respect factor is very different.  There needs to be some sort of expectation and experienced teachers in a high school classroom.  That is not the place for on the job experience.  This is just my opinion]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nextset, That was my experience too with the exception of the large Black Lady in the kitchen.  Discipline is up to the person heading the ckassroom.  It is my experience if you present yourself as an adult, nit a &#8220;friend&#8221;  the respect factor is very different.  There needs to be some sort of expectation and experienced teachers in a high school classroom.  That is not the place for on the job experience.  This is just my opinion</p>
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		<title>By: Nextset</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21983</link>
		<dc:creator>Nextset</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 05:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alice;  Remember, IQ difference are most noticeable after puberty. Every time you see an educator using elementary school scores to discuss &quot;The Gap&quot; he is deliberately deceiving you about his program&#039;s success and relevance.

If the lower IQ students aren&#039;t given needed training at the high school level the difference in standard of living by the 10 year reunion is stark indeed. The dull kids can&#039;t &quot;make up&quot; the training deficits after they leave high school. This is why I feel schools such as OUSD are killing the black kids with kindness (if you call this &quot;kind&quot;). With schools such as OUSD neglecting the deportment and basic skill indoctrination of the larger black population this group is ready made for being supplanted by the 3rd world immigrants the government is importing as fast as it can.

This was not true several generations ago where OUSD graduates went to service work and to the military upon leaving school. They were largely acceptable candidates then. Now they are unwelcome job applicants (&quot;bilingual preferred&quot; is code for &quot;we don&#039;t use colored people&quot; and military rejects (due to failing the math/verbal computer-administered/time pressure tests).

I was talking to a law grad today about some of this.  When I was at Oakland Tech for the summer programs they had a basement cafeteria where large black women baked fresh hot cinnamon rolls doused with butter in the morning and cafeteria lunches - Mac &amp; Cheese &amp; Burgers and whatever else Cooked from Scratch with hot fresh cornbread, etc. (Cheap, too!)  We went upstairs to Typing classrooms outfitted with 50 or so huge electric typewriters, Chemistry Classes with individual bunsen burners and sinks, biology classrooms with microscopes for every student...  And NO ONE ever talked back to a teacher. Classroom doors were locked at the tardy bell.  No one was in the halls during class. Miss class 3 days and you&#039;re out. We got to school on time in the AM for the cinnamon rolls.

Now I don&#039;t know any urban school with that kind of food, that kind of equipment, and that kind of discipline. Maybe the kids would do better if we had this again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alice;  Remember, IQ difference are most noticeable after puberty. Every time you see an educator using elementary school scores to discuss &#8220;The Gap&#8221; he is deliberately deceiving you about his program&#8217;s success and relevance.</p>
<p>If the lower IQ students aren&#8217;t given needed training at the high school level the difference in standard of living by the 10 year reunion is stark indeed. The dull kids can&#8217;t &#8220;make up&#8221; the training deficits after they leave high school. This is why I feel schools such as OUSD are killing the black kids with kindness (if you call this &#8220;kind&#8221;). With schools such as OUSD neglecting the deportment and basic skill indoctrination of the larger black population this group is ready made for being supplanted by the 3rd world immigrants the government is importing as fast as it can.</p>
<p>This was not true several generations ago where OUSD graduates went to service work and to the military upon leaving school. They were largely acceptable candidates then. Now they are unwelcome job applicants (&#8220;bilingual preferred&#8221; is code for &#8220;we don&#8217;t use colored people&#8221; and military rejects (due to failing the math/verbal computer-administered/time pressure tests).</p>
<p>I was talking to a law grad today about some of this.  When I was at Oakland Tech for the summer programs they had a basement cafeteria where large black women baked fresh hot cinnamon rolls doused with butter in the morning and cafeteria lunches &#8211; Mac &amp; Cheese &amp; Burgers and whatever else Cooked from Scratch with hot fresh cornbread, etc. (Cheap, too!)  We went upstairs to Typing classrooms outfitted with 50 or so huge electric typewriters, Chemistry Classes with individual bunsen burners and sinks, biology classrooms with microscopes for every student&#8230;  And NO ONE ever talked back to a teacher. Classroom doors were locked at the tardy bell.  No one was in the halls during class. Miss class 3 days and you&#8217;re out. We got to school on time in the AM for the cinnamon rolls.</p>
<p>Now I don&#8217;t know any urban school with that kind of food, that kind of equipment, and that kind of discipline. Maybe the kids would do better if we had this again.</p>
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		<title>By: Alice</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21982</link>
		<dc:creator>Alice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 01:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21982</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is nobel to point out such tremendous gains in elementary schools here in Oakland, however are there any gains in Middle or High Schools?  Pay attention to the &quot;Small Autonomous Schools&quot; created during the last few years.  The scores are dismal, non the less the achievement gap.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is nobel to point out such tremendous gains in elementary schools here in Oakland, however are there any gains in Middle or High Schools?  Pay attention to the &#8220;Small Autonomous Schools&#8221; created during the last few years.  The scores are dismal, non the less the achievement gap.</p>
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		<title>By: oak261</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21981</link>
		<dc:creator>oak261</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 23:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21981</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cranky researcher: To say IQ is highly malleable is very misleading.  You refer to the &quot;Flynn effect&quot; and the increase in test scores over time.  Yes the Flynn effect is real, but it doesn&#039;t debunk the meaning or significance of IQ.  You can watch a debate between Charles Murray and James Flynn online, and what is remarkable is how much they agree.

There is research supporting Debora&#039;s observations that are not easily dismissed.

Its important not to dismiss facts or hard research just because we don&#039;t like the results.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cranky researcher: To say IQ is highly malleable is very misleading.  You refer to the &#8220;Flynn effect&#8221; and the increase in test scores over time.  Yes the Flynn effect is real, but it doesn&#8217;t debunk the meaning or significance of IQ.  You can watch a debate between Charles Murray and James Flynn online, and what is remarkable is how much they agree.</p>
<p>There is research supporting Debora&#8217;s observations that are not easily dismissed.</p>
<p>Its important not to dismiss facts or hard research just because we don&#8217;t like the results.</p>
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		<title>By: Debora</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21980</link>
		<dc:creator>Debora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 05:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cranky Researcher:

How do you account for black students adopted into white middle-class to upper middle class families at birth who are still struggling and are performing at below basic and far below basic? I happen to personally know four such families.

None of these children were born with drug or alcohol addicted. Some birth mothers had good nutrition and medical care throughout pregnancy, some did not.

I struggle with this question often as these children are all in hills schools and three of four are now using IEPs to manage their public education.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cranky Researcher:</p>
<p>How do you account for black students adopted into white middle-class to upper middle class families at birth who are still struggling and are performing at below basic and far below basic? I happen to personally know four such families.</p>
<p>None of these children were born with drug or alcohol addicted. Some birth mothers had good nutrition and medical care throughout pregnancy, some did not.</p>
<p>I struggle with this question often as these children are all in hills schools and three of four are now using IEPs to manage their public education.</p>
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		<title>By: Cranky researcher</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2009/08/18/test-score-gains-greater-knowledge-or-better-prep/comment-page-1/#comment-21979</link>
		<dc:creator>Cranky researcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=6248#comment-21979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Once again, Nextset: If IQ was largely inherited, we wouldn&#039;t see a steady, strong climb in national IQ averages over the century, but we do. IQ is highly malleable. You can increase your own IQ significantly across your lifetime through...education! I already cited all the research last time you posted this bogus argument (Charles Murray&#039;s weak IQ work has been refuted by good data and analysis).

About the OUSD black-white achievement gap: apples and oranges. OUSD&#039;s white students are a tiny affluent elite living in the hills. Of course they score higher than the poor majority. The relevant gap is between black and white student performance under relatively similar circumstances. Even affluent black students perform lower than their white peers. No, black OUSD students for the most part are not going to top colleges like white OUSD students do. But there is no reason why a majority of black and brown Oakland students couldn&#039;t attend community college or state school and make it to graduation. Except low expectations, poor investments in teaching, etc.  Three consecutive years with an excellent teacher can erase racial achievement gaps in elementary school, acc to some research.
Finally, it is true that these tests do not measure everything and are not necessarily predictive of success. Persistence (&quot;resilience&quot;) is more highly correlated with college success than SAT scores. We need to teach the whole student, but we need test scores to ensure that basic educational needs are being met. Without them, schools pass along illiterate kids and there is no way to prove it and do something about it. The old school way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, Nextset: If IQ was largely inherited, we wouldn&#8217;t see a steady, strong climb in national IQ averages over the century, but we do. IQ is highly malleable. You can increase your own IQ significantly across your lifetime through&#8230;education! I already cited all the research last time you posted this bogus argument (Charles Murray&#8217;s weak IQ work has been refuted by good data and analysis).</p>
<p>About the OUSD black-white achievement gap: apples and oranges. OUSD&#8217;s white students are a tiny affluent elite living in the hills. Of course they score higher than the poor majority. The relevant gap is between black and white student performance under relatively similar circumstances. Even affluent black students perform lower than their white peers. No, black OUSD students for the most part are not going to top colleges like white OUSD students do. But there is no reason why a majority of black and brown Oakland students couldn&#8217;t attend community college or state school and make it to graduation. Except low expectations, poor investments in teaching, etc.  Three consecutive years with an excellent teacher can erase racial achievement gaps in elementary school, acc to some research.<br />
Finally, it is true that these tests do not measure everything and are not necessarily predictive of success. Persistence (&#8220;resilience&#8221;) is more highly correlated with college success than SAT scores. We need to teach the whole student, but we need test scores to ensure that basic educational needs are being met. Without them, schools pass along illiterate kids and there is no way to prove it and do something about it. The old school way.</p>
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