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	<title>Comments on: Rethinking the seniority system</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/</link>
	<description>Katy Murphy&#039;s blog on Oakland schools</description>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Dannenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37225</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Dannenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2011 06:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37225</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Annie Hatch makes some good points in her article, but what is the point? Have you ever been to a bad doctor? (I have.) It is the responsibility of administrative staff to evaluate teachers in a supportive way that emphasizes best practices and strategies for improvement, if needed. That said, if teachers don&#039;t improve their practice, they can be fired. All too often teachers go for years and years without an evaluation (administrators are too busy), even though their district contract mandates one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Annie Hatch makes some good points in her article, but what is the point? Have you ever been to a bad doctor? (I have.) It is the responsibility of administrative staff to evaluate teachers in a supportive way that emphasizes best practices and strategies for improvement, if needed. That said, if teachers don&#8217;t improve their practice, they can be fired. All too often teachers go for years and years without an evaluation (administrators are too busy), even though their district contract mandates one.</p>
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		<title>By: J.R.</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37147</link>
		<dc:creator>J.R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2011 16:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the overwhelming majority of cases(since most teachers have similar credentialing ie: multi-subject credentials )seniority is THE deciding factor.You are trying to intentionally muddy the issue and divert attention from the core problem here. Bilingual and sp.ed are specialized federally mandated programs and are at least partially federally subsidized and are thus not pertinent in this discussion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the overwhelming majority of cases(since most teachers have similar credentialing ie: multi-subject credentials )seniority is THE deciding factor.You are trying to intentionally muddy the issue and divert attention from the core problem here. Bilingual and sp.ed are specialized federally mandated programs and are at least partially federally subsidized and are thus not pertinent in this discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Bones</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37146</link>
		<dc:creator>Bones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2011 16:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37146</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David is right. I believe all Bilingual and Sp.Ed teachers were protected from receiving pink slips this year because the supply of available teachers is so small.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David is right. I believe all Bilingual and Sp.Ed teachers were protected from receiving pink slips this year because the supply of available teachers is so small.</p>
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		<title>By: david laub</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37109</link>
		<dc:creator>david laub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 May 2011 17:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37109</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#54-

Pink slips require TWO MEASURES. One of them is seniority (date of hire). The second criteria is certification/credentialing (what credentials and certifications the teacher has). It is the combination of the two criteria which determines who is pink slipped.

Like it or not, this IS the set of TWO CRITERION that determine lay-offs. Whether or not your biases allow you to digest this FACT is your own issue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#54-</p>
<p>Pink slips require TWO MEASURES. One of them is seniority (date of hire). The second criteria is certification/credentialing (what credentials and certifications the teacher has). It is the combination of the two criteria which determines who is pink slipped.</p>
<p>Like it or not, this IS the set of TWO CRITERION that determine lay-offs. Whether or not your biases allow you to digest this FACT is your own issue.</p>
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		<title>By: AH</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37090</link>
		<dc:creator>AH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 19:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I copied this from Susan Ohanian&#039;s blog.  

I especially like the bit about the &quot;selfish mossbacks,&quot; which is why I, too, view Ms. Hatch&#039;s piece as propaganda - elegant and well-written, but propaganda, nonetheless.
--------------------------------------------------

I Does Duncan Have a Plan for Teachers

Does anybody care about all the teachers left behind? 

by Jim Horn 

Does Duncan have a plan for teachers? Sure does, as a matter of fact:

discourage teachers from getting more training in their fields, 

discourage new teachers from professional preparation, 

evaluate teachers based on test scores that reflect the gaps they cannot close, 

provide pay bonuses based on test scores, thus discouraging teachers from working with the children who need the most help, 

turn teaching into test score production management, 

drain existing teacher resources, cut benefits, and drive down teacher pay by encouraging more corporate welfare charter schools, 

ignore poverty and pretend that teachers can fix poor children with total compliance and brainwashing, 

portray teachers as selfish mossbacks who resist change, 

continue to encourage the resegregation of American schools. 




— Jim Horn
Schools Matter blog
2011-05-01
http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2011/05/62-percent-of-american-teachers-work.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I copied this from Susan Ohanian&#8217;s blog.  </p>
<p>I especially like the bit about the &#8220;selfish mossbacks,&#8221; which is why I, too, view Ms. Hatch&#8217;s piece as propaganda &#8211; elegant and well-written, but propaganda, nonetheless.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>I Does Duncan Have a Plan for Teachers</p>
<p>Does anybody care about all the teachers left behind? </p>
<p>by Jim Horn </p>
<p>Does Duncan have a plan for teachers? Sure does, as a matter of fact:</p>
<p>discourage teachers from getting more training in their fields, </p>
<p>discourage new teachers from professional preparation, </p>
<p>evaluate teachers based on test scores that reflect the gaps they cannot close, </p>
<p>provide pay bonuses based on test scores, thus discouraging teachers from working with the children who need the most help, </p>
<p>turn teaching into test score production management, </p>
<p>drain existing teacher resources, cut benefits, and drive down teacher pay by encouraging more corporate welfare charter schools, </p>
<p>ignore poverty and pretend that teachers can fix poor children with total compliance and brainwashing, </p>
<p>portray teachers as selfish mossbacks who resist change, </p>
<p>continue to encourage the resegregation of American schools. </p>
<p>— Jim Horn<br />
Schools Matter blog<br />
2011-05-01<br />
<a href="http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2011/05/62-percent-of-american-teachers-work.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2011/05/62-percent-of-american-teachers-work.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: AH</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37088</link>
		<dc:creator>AH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 18:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37088</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ms. Hatch, Rachel T. -

We do not need to rethink our seniority system.  If you think it is a revolving door now, just wait . . .  

In the 1940s, my mother taught a small Central Vally town near Visalia.  The growers didn&#039;t want tenured teachers, and they controlled the school boards.  Every two years, my mother taught in Visalia, and Visalia teachers taught in her district.  

Where is the stability there?  How is that good for the kids?

That is only one example.  There is no reason to believe that it won&#039;t happen again.  And, this would include you, as well, unless there is some reason to believe that you, and you alone, would somehow escape it.   

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves.  And stop it with the mean-spirited whining.

It&#039;s hard to lose a job, especially in this economy. 

However, it&#039;s getting very hard to be sympathetic, especially the part about &quot;what is the point?&quot;  Take Steve Weinberg&#039;s advice and go to the OEA for help.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ms. Hatch, Rachel T. -</p>
<p>We do not need to rethink our seniority system.  If you think it is a revolving door now, just wait . . .  </p>
<p>In the 1940s, my mother taught a small Central Vally town near Visalia.  The growers didn&#8217;t want tenured teachers, and they controlled the school boards.  Every two years, my mother taught in Visalia, and Visalia teachers taught in her district.  </p>
<p>Where is the stability there?  How is that good for the kids?</p>
<p>That is only one example.  There is no reason to believe that it won&#8217;t happen again.  And, this would include you, as well, unless there is some reason to believe that you, and you alone, would somehow escape it.   </p>
<p>Stop feeling sorry for yourselves.  And stop it with the mean-spirited whining.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to lose a job, especially in this economy. </p>
<p>However, it&#8217;s getting very hard to be sympathetic, especially the part about &#8220;what is the point?&#8221;  Take Steve Weinberg&#8217;s advice and go to the OEA for help.</p>
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		<title>By: J.R.</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37087</link>
		<dc:creator>J.R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 16:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steven,
        First of all, I gave you a link with factual information, not my opinion. Secondly fairness to students will be the TOP priority as taxpayers are showing all over this country. Lastly tenured teachers getting terminated for poor performance is extremely rare which is in effect &quot;a job for life&quot; unless the teacher does something really egregious.

School districts - 1047
Teachers  -        290,000
Statewide dismissal hearings 1996-2005 -           100
How many dismissals -   ?????????????(we know its less than 100 statewide)In 9 years!

Teachers are being shuffled around, instead of being dismissed and thats what most teachers see happening.

The truth is coming out and taxpayers are deciding for themselves. It&#039;s just a matter of time before things change. It won&#039;t be long because we don&#039;t have the money for the confiscation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven,<br />
        First of all, I gave you a link with factual information, not my opinion. Secondly fairness to students will be the TOP priority as taxpayers are showing all over this country. Lastly tenured teachers getting terminated for poor performance is extremely rare which is in effect &#8220;a job for life&#8221; unless the teacher does something really egregious.</p>
<p>School districts &#8211; 1047<br />
Teachers  &#8211;        290,000<br />
Statewide dismissal hearings 1996-2005 &#8211;           100<br />
How many dismissals &#8211;   ?????????????(we know its less than 100 statewide)In 9 years!</p>
<p>Teachers are being shuffled around, instead of being dismissed and thats what most teachers see happening.</p>
<p>The truth is coming out and taxpayers are deciding for themselves. It&#8217;s just a matter of time before things change. It won&#8217;t be long because we don&#8217;t have the money for the confiscation.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Weinberg</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37078</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Weinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 07:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37078</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JR You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts. It doesn&#039;t matter how many times you say that lay-off rules were written by teachers&#039; unions it doesn&#039;t change the fact that the rules were written years before teachers had any rights to bargain collectively. They were written to make teaching a more desirable occupation by eliminating the danger of teachers being fired by local boards for arbitrary reasons.
I looked at your link and on page 9 it lists the steps boards must go through to terminate a teacher. They did not seem unreasonable to me. The key step is an administrative hearing with one judge picked by the Board, one by the union, and a third picked by the other two. A 2/3rds vote decides the case. 
I am sure there are some details to the process that could be refined, but having a neutral party have the swing vote in making the decisions seems the only fair way for terminations to be handled.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JR You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts. It doesn&#8217;t matter how many times you say that lay-off rules were written by teachers&#8217; unions it doesn&#8217;t change the fact that the rules were written years before teachers had any rights to bargain collectively. They were written to make teaching a more desirable occupation by eliminating the danger of teachers being fired by local boards for arbitrary reasons.<br />
I looked at your link and on page 9 it lists the steps boards must go through to terminate a teacher. They did not seem unreasonable to me. The key step is an administrative hearing with one judge picked by the Board, one by the union, and a third picked by the other two. A 2/3rds vote decides the case.<br />
I am sure there are some details to the process that could be refined, but having a neutral party have the swing vote in making the decisions seems the only fair way for terminations to be handled.</p>
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		<title>By: J.R.</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37075</link>
		<dc:creator>J.R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 07:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37075</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I have stated before, these laws were bought and paid for by the unions and have no bearing on the education of children, they are for the sole benefit of the unions, and teachers.

The full and complete text is here:

http://www.nctq.org/p/publications/docs/nctq_invisible_ink_20080801115950.pdf

&quot;California’s dismissal process includes 10
different steps that must be taken before
the dismissal is finalized, perhaps explaining
why just 100 dismissal hearings were
heard in the state between 1996 and
2005, according to the state’s Legislative
Analyst’s Office&quot;.

&quot;Although states do not employ teachers
(districts do), states play a central role in
policies on teacher evaluation. Most states
require evaluations only every two or
three years. Only 13 states require annual
evaluations of the performance of tenured
instructors&quot;.

&quot;In terms of teachers’ rights for due process,
there are two kinds of teachers: those
with tenure (also known as “continuing
contract” status) and those without it.
A veteran teacher with tenure receives
preferential treatment over newer teachers
in everything from school assignment to
dismissal procedures. Tenure also plays a
role in how frequently a teacher is evaluated,
typically ranging from a couple of
times a year for the untenured teacher to
as seldom as once every five years for the
tenured teacher&quot;.

&quot;The practice of “bumping” — in which
a more senior teacher can simply bump
another teacher from a position — occurs
in districts without agreements (e.g.,
Mobile, Alabama and Fort Worth, Texas)
just as it does in districts with agreements
(e.g., Los Angeles, California and
Anne Arundel County, Maryland)&quot;.

&quot;Apart from the number of years that a
teacher serves, state laws tend to put only
one other condition on a teacher’s eligibility
for tenure: a record of satisfactory evaluations,
an achievement that few teachers
fail to earn&quot;.

Parents,taxpayers please read this entirely and make up your own mind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I have stated before, these laws were bought and paid for by the unions and have no bearing on the education of children, they are for the sole benefit of the unions, and teachers.</p>
<p>The full and complete text is here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nctq.org/p/publications/docs/nctq_invisible_ink_20080801115950.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.nctq.org/p/publications/docs/nctq_invisible_ink_20080801115950.pdf</a></p>
<p>&#8220;California’s dismissal process includes 10<br />
different steps that must be taken before<br />
the dismissal is finalized, perhaps explaining<br />
why just 100 dismissal hearings were<br />
heard in the state between 1996 and<br />
2005, according to the state’s Legislative<br />
Analyst’s Office&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;Although states do not employ teachers<br />
(districts do), states play a central role in<br />
policies on teacher evaluation. Most states<br />
require evaluations only every two or<br />
three years. Only 13 states require annual<br />
evaluations of the performance of tenured<br />
instructors&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;In terms of teachers’ rights for due process,<br />
there are two kinds of teachers: those<br />
with tenure (also known as “continuing<br />
contract” status) and those without it.<br />
A veteran teacher with tenure receives<br />
preferential treatment over newer teachers<br />
in everything from school assignment to<br />
dismissal procedures. Tenure also plays a<br />
role in how frequently a teacher is evaluated,<br />
typically ranging from a couple of<br />
times a year for the untenured teacher to<br />
as seldom as once every five years for the<br />
tenured teacher&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;The practice of “bumping” — in which<br />
a more senior teacher can simply bump<br />
another teacher from a position — occurs<br />
in districts without agreements (e.g.,<br />
Mobile, Alabama and Fort Worth, Texas)<br />
just as it does in districts with agreements<br />
(e.g., Los Angeles, California and<br />
Anne Arundel County, Maryland)&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;Apart from the number of years that a<br />
teacher serves, state laws tend to put only<br />
one other condition on a teacher’s eligibility<br />
for tenure: a record of satisfactory evaluations,<br />
an achievement that few teachers<br />
fail to earn&#8221;.</p>
<p>Parents,taxpayers please read this entirely and make up your own mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Weinberg</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/2011/05/04/rethinking-the-seniority-system/comment-page-2/#comment-37073</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Weinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 06:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/education/?p=12408#comment-37073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is some truth the Mr. Smithers&#039; statement that schools benefited for years because women were barred from other professions, but I have not noticed any great change in the percentage of brilliant teachers from when I was a student in the 1950s to today. 
Ms. Hatch, there is one comment I should have made to you earlier, but I got caught up debating the issue you raised. I noted that Katie says that your letter has not yet been rescinded. Whatever you think of OEA and the policies surrounding lay-offs (which, by the way, are set by state law, not our local contract), you should keep in contact with OEA and follow their advise about how to respond to the pink slip. In my 40 years of teaching I have seen the union save many teachers&#039; jobs when the district made errors in following lay-off procedures. 
You should observe that none of those who have praised your position on lay-offs have taken any actions to help save your job. Very few, if any, of them commended the Board of Education when most lay-off letters were revoked. They have a political agenda and are using the plight of teachers like yourself to further that agenda. I wish you good luck in retaining your job.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is some truth the Mr. Smithers&#8217; statement that schools benefited for years because women were barred from other professions, but I have not noticed any great change in the percentage of brilliant teachers from when I was a student in the 1950s to today.<br />
Ms. Hatch, there is one comment I should have made to you earlier, but I got caught up debating the issue you raised. I noted that Katie says that your letter has not yet been rescinded. Whatever you think of OEA and the policies surrounding lay-offs (which, by the way, are set by state law, not our local contract), you should keep in contact with OEA and follow their advise about how to respond to the pink slip. In my 40 years of teaching I have seen the union save many teachers&#8217; jobs when the district made errors in following lay-off procedures.<br />
You should observe that none of those who have praised your position on lay-offs have taken any actions to help save your job. Very few, if any, of them commended the Board of Education when most lay-off letters were revoked. They have a political agenda and are using the plight of teachers like yourself to further that agenda. I wish you good luck in retaining your job.</p>
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