A OUSD board member’s proposal: No further cuts to adult education

David KakishibaDavid Kakishiba doesn’t think the Oakland school district should swipe another $3.3 million from the adult education fund. Such a move would all but shut down adult education in Oakland, leaving only about $1 million in ongoing funds for a program that once had a budget of more than $11 million.

Kakishiba will suggest that change — and others — to the superintendent’s budget proposal at Wednesday’s 5 p.m. school board meeting. His four “adjustments” (See full document below) were discussed by the Finance and Human Resources Committee this week and unanimously forwarded to the full board for a discussion.

The 2011-12 budget is up for approval the following week, on June 29. The most recent OUSD proposal to date is posted below.

THE CASE FOR LEAVING ADULT ED’S REMAINING FUNDS ALONE: Kakishiba said he believes Oakland’s adult education programs will help the district realize its vision of “full-service community schools,” especially since adult ed’s services — GED and school-based family literacy — line up so closely with OUSD’s mission.

Besides, the board member said he wasn’t convinced the administration’s plans for spending that money on high schools line up with the strategic plan the school board is about to vote on tomorrow. He said the idea of launching a centralized academic counseling team (one of the proposed expenditures of the adult ed money) “makes no sense to me.”

The other items on which the funds might be spent, he said, amount to “very small investments in big issues.”

Lastly, he said, California school districts were given only temporary permission to spend their adult education funds on k-12 programs. OUSD can’t rely on that money forever; it is considered a `non-reoccurring’ revenue source and is included in OUSD’s structural budget deficit total, which is now projected to be $15.8 million (page 31).

To reduce that deficit, Kakishiba also wants to restore other programs put on hold during the budget crisis, such as deferred maintenance.

Kakishiba also thinks the district should use $1 million of Measure G parcel tax money for high school electives, rather than middle school electives. Since that money has already been built into middle school budgets, he has proposed covering the cost this year with money from the district’s ending fund balance.

What prompted him to make this proposal now? After years of accepting reports from a state administrator, he said, “The board is beginning to get used to governing.”

ABOUT THAT ENDING FUND BALANCE: On paper, looks incredibly high: $48 million. Here’s the breakdown, according to Page 30 of the superintendent’s budget proposal:

  • $8.8 million – required 2 percent reserve
  • $15.8 million – for audit findings and “one-time items” (a number that’s nearly $7 million higher than the same line item in the current year’s budget)
  • $12.7 million – money OUSD will get if the state gives schools flat funding for 2011-12, but which Deputy Superintendent Vernon Hal isn’t counting on, no matter what Gov. Jerry Brown says (equivalent to $349/student)
  • $10.6 million – to cover the state’s deferred payments to OUSD — one of California’s favorite budget-balancing tricks
  • $150,000 – revolving cash fund

Kakishiba’s budget proposal
Superintendent’s budget proposal

Katy Murphy

Education reporter for the Oakland Tribune. Contact me at kmurphy@bayareanewsgroup.com.

  • Sam Davis

    Thanks Katy – I’m very very glad that we’ve managed to convince some Board members that Family Literacy and GED are crucial supports to district families especially during this economic crisis.

    A couple of minor corrections – Oakland Adult Ed in its heyday earned over $14 million in state grants based on attendance and CBET funding, plus federal grants so its total budget was almost $16 million in 2007-08 (you said $11 million). Not to mention that adult ed attendance also brought lottery money to the district that went to K-12.

    Also I don’t believe it’s accurate to say that David Kakishiba’s proposal would mean *no* further cuts to Adult Ed. We would get $4.3 m in state funding next year plus $0.9 m in federal grants. This year I believe we got $4.7 m in state funding (including $300K in CBET funding) plus $1.1 m in federal grants. (Vernon Hal’s presentation lists our funding this year as $8.3 m but that includes $2.5 m which was originally labeled Adult Ed but was used to fund the early retirement package for the entire district.)

    So I don’t want people to think we would escape the budget cuts under this proposal. We would still be getting a 9% cut (instead of a 79% cut) on top of the 56% cut we got last year.

    But of course I will be very very happy if this proposal passes and my layoff notice and those of my colleagues is rescinded. I have 10 years experience and could go find another job teaching ESL in the private sector but I would hate to throw away the years of work I have put in to my school site and of course the same goes for the other dedicated Family Literacy and GED/Adult Ed High School Subject teachers who have been laid off with me.

  • Nextset

    Now this is a facinating policy discussion. Does OUSD try to be all things to all people by maintaining Adult Ed in the face of historic budget cuts – or does OUSD make a public statement that all people are not created equal and start for the first time saying that they will cut some people loose in order to save other people who are deemed to be more deserving of saving – or easier to save – or some such variation of the term TRIAGE.

    In an emergency when people are to die, those in charge of “rescue” must decide how to allocate the deaths and the resources. Do you try to save everybody equally and maximize all your deaths but feel great about principle? Do you maximize resources to your favorite people (own kids, whites, blacks, young, old, etc) even if that means you won’t save a remarkable number there anyway but will maximize deaths of the disfavored, or do you strictly apply resources to save only those who are borderline and will thus maximize survival in total, allowing the likely to die to do so without any aid – maybe pallative care if you can spare it, and also not worry about those who are likely to survive without much help. Over the centuries Triage typically means you apply resources/rescue to where you can make the best overall survival rates with minimal special treatment for VIPS.

    OUSD will go into shock if they have to adopt Triage because of the fiscal emergency. They won’t do it. It’s just not their thing. They want to take care of their favorites of the moment come hell or high water.

    I think so anyway. Except that they are certainly screwing over the blacks so I suppose they’re really not the realy favorites no matter what the electeds try to convince us. Actions speak louder than words. When the black board members are eventually replaced by Mexicans – a demographic liklihood, I don’t think there will even be a pretense the blacks are objects of bounty any more. Funny thing, that just might lead to actual improvements in blacks stats. (Save us from black/white liberals, as I’ve mentioned in passing.)

    Nothing like real adversity to get people doing better for themselves.

    As far as the Adult Ed goes, face it, people, it’s doomed. Count the number of taxpayers with children aged 6 to 18. And the potential votes of those families. Count the number of Adult Ed students in the secondary schools, and their potential votes. It’s a no brainer.

    Besides, Adults can go to the Jr Colleges and get low income waivers for the tuition no matter how high the state raises them. And at the JC’s you get to share classrooms with the Parolees – 1000 of them at a single JC I know of. Word is the state is paying them to attend Jr. College – at least to pretend to attend. They show for some classes for awhile then get back to drug dealing, stealing, and Mac-ing on the 18 year old girls. Is this a great state or what? Who needs adult ed when you have the Jr. Colleges?

    So I think there’s probably no margin in fighting to increase cuts in K-12 programs so OUSD can fight to take (some of) the Adult Students from the Jr. Colleges. It’s doesn’t sound like a winning fight to me.

    But I’m only one person. Maybe I’m overlooking something.

    OUSD needs to develop online education – as an emergency provision for continuation of operations when the real depression II hits. This is Triage, 2011 style. It’s called “online only”. You’re going to hear that phrase a lot soon in municipal services.

  • Katy Murphy

    Hi Sam – I’m talking about ongoing state funding here, which was $11.5 m in 2009-10 (if I’m not mistaken). The district has already taken more than $7m of that, and proposes to take all but $1m of the remaining funds next year. So yes, no matter what happens, adult ed will be a fraction of its former size.

  • Can’t believe it

    There are 1000 parolees attending Laney all paid for by the State?
    I agree with Nextset- go to a JC. No can afford Adult Ed.
    At least OUSD is consistent – they are getting rid of all their immigrant teachers by refusing to sponsor their visas and now they are doing away with classes for immigrants in Adult Ed.

  • Zinnia

    Glad to see Kakishiba say that centralized counselors make no sense to him.

  • Oakland Teacher

    I can assure you that centralized counselors will make no sense to students either. I have never even heard a students say they were going to talk to “a counselor”; it is always “my counselor”. That would cease to be a possibility and most kids would not interact with someone they did not know, have a relationship with, or was not at their school site.

  • Nextset

    I don’t know the parolee population of Laney.

    Laney probably doesn’t know either since most parolees don’t have to register with the campus police or administration. Registered Sex Offenders now have to register if they enroll in classes at the schools. That’s only a tiny fraction (less than 5%) of the student parolee population if the story I’ve heard is typical. Maybe it’s not, could be worse or better in Oakland. I don’t know.

    The local parole office probably does have the info as to how many of their parolees are at Laney or Merritt or UC Berkeley or wherever they are. I haven’t heard that that info is collated and readily offered.

    My point is that the 18 year old JC students could be sitting next to a refugee from Pelican Bay. Now the tattoos are a dead giveaway – if Ken & Barbie or Otis and Latifa have ever been trained to “discriminate”. If they’d been my students or my responsibility they would be. Once you’ve had the class it isn’t that hard to recognize the convicts or learn the value system they operate on (ie stop expecting them to stay out of trouble – look at the recividism stats).

    I also believe that the JC’s are unable and unprepared to deal with the co-morbid personality disorders the parolees tend to have. There’s a reason the recivist rates are so high as well as the death rates for these people. Many of them are not exactly in control of their behavior. They have appetities, interests, and addictions that the faculty cannot write prescriptions for – and the parolee offices tend to have staff psychologists but not physicians so they can’t write perscriptions for them either. Parolee behavior isn’t just a matter of wanting to be good or not. Mixing them indiscriminately with typical JC Students is a disaster waiting to happen.

    What I expect happens is that the adolescents are utterly unable to see the trouble that will come with any association with the parolees. And by associating I mean even standing next to them, much less speaking with them. At least not until Abnormal Psych classes are fully digested.

    Well, we do send the kids to college to learn.

    And we do see the Brave New World in operation. To the extent the Jr Colleges become 13th grade with mixing of people who should not be mixed so indiscriminately you are going to have the same/worse problems at certain JCs that you have with the Urban High Schools (that cease functioning as “schools”).

    I’d prefer that part of the enrollment at the State JCs and State Universities include sworn statement of criminal convictions – all of them and maybe livescanning the applicants – and management approval of the enrollment and continued enrollment of at least the parolees, if not all the convicted strikers, if not all the convicted felons.

    The enrollment process at the 4 year colleges – the competitive enrollment processes – provide some protections from sitting next to a Pelican Bay refugee. There is no such safety when you send your child to an urban JC.

    I know that the professional class tends to really like the JC at Santa Barbara, which shares dorms with UCSB. If Ken and Barbie aren’t Stanford material there’s always that JC.

    Caste things again – people using distance and lack of bus routes to maintain class separations.

    CA Education Policy is a lot of fun.

    I’m not saying the felons need to be banned altogether, I am saying the school faculty and administration should have full disclosure of at least the active parolees and a chance to make decisions about class placement and schedule approvals up to and including deferring enrollment till times get better on a case by case basis.

    Back to he original thread, seriously, isn’t the Jr Colleges the place to manage Adult Ed? They do great things with vocational training. Graduates in some programs have starting salaries well over $50k a year. No college degree required – just manage the state license exams and get hired in most cases.

  • Mother of three

    I can’t imagine ANY school without counselors. If you’re talking about the full service schools, then you need to include counselors. My three children always had counselors that they created relationships with each year. All three of my kids had their counselor for all four years of high school. In those days you had consistency, which kids need! My youngest, a resource student and needed a lot of support due to his health issues. The counselor helped him to become more confident and supported him when he had a conflict with one of the teachers or administrators. To centralize counselors would be a crime. How would students access their counselors? How will students even know where to find the counselors? What about transportation? How would they bond? I’d rather have my kids see a counselor than an administrator. Who came up with such a lame idea to centralized counselors! In my opinion, there was not much though given to implement the idea!

  • PR

    Launching a centralized academic counseling team makes no sense to me either. As a counselor, I know that in order to assist students, we must build relationships with the school body. We must be consistent in offering services from year to year. Recently, I was told that counselors were not serving all students! Perhaps, that is because we don’t have enough counselors, remember the 700:1 ratio! Counselors need to go into our schools to counsel our students, parents, community, staff, and teachers. Often, counselors are pulled out to fill in for other responsibilities such as proctoring exams, field trips, programming, master scheduling, and anything else that pops-up. Counselors need to be allowed to assess the needs of the school and produce programs that they need to implement. I would have to say the out-sourcing of individuals have become somewhat like scavengers that can’t wait to get their hand on the jobs of counselors. Believe me, there is enough work for all of us. The centralized plan needs to be created in the schools. If there is a need for out-sourcing of services, then this process should be coordinated and organized by counselors. And, if there is money for trainings, conferences, and workshops perhaps it should go to counselors.

  • Can’t believe it

    Counselors do not serve all students, only the troubled and the criminal. the counseling job of listening, observing, advising and implementing has been passed to the teachers. that is why teaching is ever so much more complicated than it ever was. Suicides, divorces, drinking problems, arrests, beatings, sexual harassment, homophobia, fights, loss of a job, and all the academic and social problems which flow from this are first confronted by the teacher. does anyone think a 30 minute visit to a harried counselor solves anything? It is the patient professional, steady on his or her job whom is really the last centurion. OK, I know the reality is that some teachers fulfill this role like rock stars, and others have zero time or even less interest in this aspect of teaching. But the best do…

    No I’m not for centralized counseling, but let’s not live in pretendia where counselors actually solve kid’s problems while providing all the “other” services described by PR, which chew up 50% of their time….which by the way ALL used to be done by those high priced administrators who now will do away with any non-essential job (except their own).

  • Nextset

    As the schools collapse financially we’re going to have to change how things are done. This is true across all the municipalities. For example, a municipality I know finally stopped mailing out paystubs. The employees are told now it’s “online only” (they have to register an email address to have their paystub sent to them – or print it out from a work computer themselves). Other municipalities are requiring direct deposit only – no more paychecks. I’m informed some large private employers are doing that also. If the employee refuses or is unable to provide a bank account number for direct deposit they are issued a debit card from the payroll service. The savings are substantial.

    These changes are being done to squeeze every cent out of the budget and to reduce labor time to process payrolls. The schools have some similar issues with the Counselors. To the extent the child and family need the counselors to approve something, refer to some service, or answer a relatively simple question – maybe the solution is “online only”. Then the schools can even outsource the work, perhaps to India.

    And as far as the child and family not having internet access or a computer – that’s strictly their problem. Borrow one. At some point you just stop babying people and force them to cut up their own food.

    Perhaps this would allow the counseling staff to adjust their workflows to give appointments to those students and families they actually need to see in person.

    You may start to see changes elsewhere – I’ve heard of Drs using Skype – especially those in Psych. Interviews (especially routine successive interviews) can be done interactively while observing body language. And the patient doesn’t have to find a parking place and wait in the waiting room with the other patients.

    Everybody is changing the way they operate to become more efficient and productive – or at least trying to. Difficult times does produce innovation.

    Brave New World.

  • cheuy_leuy

    PR Says:
    June 19th, 2011 at 4:05 pm
    Launching a centralized academic counseling team makes no sense to me either.

    Next, these services will be outsourced to private community social services vendors who will coordinate the purchase and delivery of counseling and other services systematically – and, be exempt from having to prove they meet the standards set by the CCTC and others. This has been going on with other professional development and others on professional services contracts just look in the schools, PE for example and others who routinely provide classes to students. It’s part of the plan to outsource public education to private venture capital.

  • Sam Davis

    Sorry to quibble Katy but I stand by my numbers! When Adult Ed funding was first made flexible in 2007-08, it was $13.4 million because that’s how much we had earned for attendance in the previous year. That’s *not* including CBET money. That’s the exact same fund that we’re still talking about. The following year it was cut by 15% by the state to $11.4 million, which is it where it has stayed constant ever since, with the district giving Adult Ed all of it in 2008-09, $10.4 m of it in 2009-10, $4.4 million in 2010-11, and either $1 million or $4.3 million next year, depending on whether Kakishiba’s proposal passes or not. The district also gave us the CBET money (less than a million a year) every year until now, but will not give it to us next year. You can check all of my numbers with the district if you want. It’s rare that you get to use the word “decimated” with its literal meaning – reduced tenfold – but Adult Ed has been literally more than decimated in just three years, and the impact on students and teachers has been even more extreme because of the operating costs of having even the tiny program that we are left with.

  • livegreen

    I am torn on this issue mstly because of the immigrants who are in internment camps left from the Vietnam war, who sided with us there, and were then kicked out of Laos, Cambodia, etc. Now they have immigration rights and are settling in Oakland, at our expense to educate. I assume the Feds are paying for sole of that? If so that’s what the money should b spent on. If not, those families have got a bad predicament, stuck somewhere between navigating child prostitution on International Blvd and Thailand…

  • Katy Murphy

    Thanks, Sam. I should have clarified in the post that I was using the 2009-10 year as a baseline, since I was talking about OUSD budgeting.

    Oakland’s adult ed programs had $11.4 million in ongoing state funding in 2009-10, before OUSD started dipping into the fund — but the programs once had more funding than that. In the spring of the 2008-09 year, adult education programs across the state were hit with a 15 percent cut. That’s when Oakland’s adult ed office eliminated most or all of its programs for seniors and the disabled. Starting in 2009-10, school districts were given the ability to use adult ed funds for k-12 programs. OUSD initially left those funds untouched, but that, obviously, didn’t last.

  • Nextset

    Livegreen: I have a Vietnamese In-Law. She came over to a refugee camp a 6 in one of the boats that didn’t sink. From there she found her way to the United States with the surviving family. Her older brother was the head of the family, the mother never learned English and the father was on one of the boats that didn’t make it.

    I’ve heard similar stories from other southeast Asians. They came here with nothing, except an average IQ of 115. 40 years later they have Houses and Hondas, large families with mother and father present, they typically went to public schools through University level. Their children and grandchildren are doing just fine – except they are now moving into private schools and public Ivys.

    Like certain other immigrants to this country who came over with average IQs of 115 – you know who I’m referring to – with the passage of time they will come to dominate the indigenous US population. That’s the way IQ works.

    Meaning we don’t have to worry about them, we don’t have to devote extra money to their needs. They will be just fine with the passage of time. They will own the place given time and a level playing field.

    I’ll finish this thread by pointing out the average IQ of the Mexican invasion is believed to be 92. This group is not a direct threat to the domination (economic, political and social) if the indigenous majority of the USA but it is a half standard deviation above the US black population. So when Congress decides to flood CA and the Southern States with Mexican Refugees, whose Ox is getting gored?

    Those who study ethnic economics have clearly noticed the industries that have the highest black employment levels having dramatic changes of fortunes and makeup, happening over even just the last 10 years. The trend projection for the next 10-30 years is a replacement of some people with new people more to the liking of Congress and it’s by far not just the blacks whose position in this nation is threatened by massive immigration of specific foreign ethnics.

    And the real amazing thing here is that the same “failing” public school systems do not stop the upward progress of the encroaching foreigners. They do just fine in the same public schools (K-University)the locals fail in. Isn’t that something.

    Thus my annoying and constant complaining that the time is short to end the babying of the black students, and ruthlessly make them as competitive as possible so they have a chance of making it in this Brave New World we are creating for them. Many of the professional blacks see what’s coming every day we work in competitive fields. Some of them are becoming Tiger Moms and Dads as a result trying to push their kids to keep up. Call them “racist”, Comrade….

    This is the way my cousins and siblings were raised in CA and that was just during the 50s and 60s. We thought our parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles were “mean” when they made us take UC entrance requirements and got violent if we didn’t do well in school or had any problems with the teachers. This current bunch of kids I see coming out of the urban public schools – such as OUSD – are not being made ready to compete against the Mexicans, much less the Vietnamese. IQ is not everything by a long shot. There are strong points and assets the black students have in abundance that’s not being developed due to the “keep ’em happy” and pacification tendencies of the urban schools. We can all do better by these kids.

    The Irish and Italians for example, did not get control of the Civil Service and Municipal governance in big American Cities in the mid 20th Century by having higher IQs than the patrician Protestants that ran those cities. They weren’t even thought to be a political threat at first. Discipline, hard work, political skill and respecting their own hierarchy overcame the establishment. You don’t have to have higher IQs to take over occupations one by one that require other things that merely high IQ. You do need discipline.

    Kind of hard to have when our urban schools tell the (some?) kids their parents can’t spank them or make them obey.

  • Turanga_teach

    This will tangent us right the hell off the original blog post, but Nextset, cite where you’re getting those IQ numbers.

  • Nextset

    I noticed an inconsistency above. Some of my relatives could not handle advanced, college level work. They shifted into occupations that didn’t require it. Like public school teaching. Those that did handle the requirements went into medicine and law. Not all went into the professions, those that didn’t went into civil service and worked their way up (as opposed to business).

    The current generation has gone into hi-tech and defense contracting – but some are on welfare. In every family grouping there is a spread of talent and an average. The trick is to get the best life out of whatever you have to work with. Some of even my younger relatives got comfortable in adolescence doing whatever they felt like. They didn’t make it. I like to think the brighter ones have all done well. We don’t beat the dummies into obedience (and keeping a job) anymore. They just go on welfare.

    You only have to be so smart to be a cop – you can be blocked from that occupation if the IQ testing comes in too high. But you cannot have a problem with the background. My point is that if we use the schools to get the discipline under control we can have more black cops and firemen, etc. (as Chicago started having Irish Cops and Firemen in the 1930s when the Irish were reviled). With behavior and discipline in bounds at the end of adolescence there are jobs in this society for most everybody – at least there used to be.

    The indiscipline we teach in the urban schools is fatal to the black students – as fatal as getting “senselessly” shot at a party you didn’t need to be at.

    Thus my complaining about the black “students” ending up coming out of the urban schools wearing pajamas below their rear ends in public getting arrested on airplanes and such. The very concepts of behavior, deportment and why – are no longer being taught in the urban schools because the schools don’t want to “offend” by teaching “white” norms or whatever they want to call them. Like not having children out of wedlock and why. Like not taking charity and why, Like not being a burden to others and why, and so on.

  • livegreen

    Nextset, That might be true, but the challenges of yesterday’s immigrants is not the same as today’s. As just one example until a few years ago child trafficking was thought to happen mostly in SE Asia, and there was almost no coverage of it here. Now we learn it’s very much a problem right here in Oakland.

    The problem has existed longer than news about it, but the reality is it has quietly built into a much bigger problem than it used to be. For poor of any background, the situation and environment are worse today than they were 10, 20, or 30 years ago.

  • Turanga_teach

    No, seriously. Cite the stats.

  • Nextset

    Livegreen: Children can be pimped out in their home nations – maybe they can be pimped out here too. I doubt it can be done here as easy as, say in Mexico or Vietnam. I also would contend the life of a child under such depravity is still going to be better – and the chances of rescue far greater.

    This nation with any of it’s faults is still the best place to make it in one generation. Ask any Eastern European refugee – such as the hordes of Russians settled in Northern CA. And the Asian refugees. They particularly laugh at how easy our taxes are to evade, and how weak our criminal system and penalties are.

    Immigrants are Iceplant in the garden. If you do not control your borders your garden will not be recognizable in the future and good luck restoring it to the original plan. The original plants will be replaced by the more dominant plants. Iceplant, in this example.

    Are we going to protect the people who are already here and are citizens – the urban blacks – or are we going to allow any particular group of 3rd worlders to come into the US without leave and supplant them? That’s a rhetorical question because the answer is clearly obvious. Too bad for the blacks. Of course some will survive in the Brave New World. But what do you think will happen to the 50% or whatever the number is that drops out of OUSD – and their descendants?

    Interesting intersection between Educational Policy and Invasion Control policy. Brave New World!

    For the record I would see a policy where legal status would be required to enroll or remain in any public school at any level K-University. Anyone else can go to Church Schools or private schools, perhaps paid for by their own Consulates. I don’t believe the citizens/taxpayers should have to pay for their dispossession in their own nation. But that’s just my opinion. Legal Immigration is one thing and that’s controversial also. Opening floodgates and damn the consequences to us is another.

  • livegreen

    I was talking about the large number of legal immigrants from Asia we have in Oakland as a result of the Vietnam war. Of course I sympathize for all in the situation, my reason for addressing the one population was the Federal Funds that should b available to assist them once they were legally allowed to get outa dodge.

    Yes it might b better than where they are. But more and more it’s not…

  • Nextset

    Maybe there is a big difference between the decade the Vietnamese arrived here. My experience with the in-law is that they are done adjusting and are on the way to the top of society in the same way the higher IQ German Jews did from their arrival without means in the early 20th Century to the present. There is significant average IQ differences between Hmong immigrants and Vietnamese, Maybe we are not talking about the same ethnic group. The Vietnamese need relatively little help and over the decades will be just fine – even attending “bad” schools alongside the blacks. Check out Orange County and it’s Vietnamese population and their income and education levels. I’ve seen it first hand.

    The African immigrants are quite interesting – Nigerians and Ethiopians for example. Those that actually got themselves here seem to surpass the indigenous black population average IQ despite having some things in common that are liabilities. You can see the results in schools now. Iceplant… Same issues with blacks from military backgrounds and their children (preselected for IQ by the military) compared to urban blacks in general – the differences in occupations and educational attainment are striking and you can see why.

    I’m going off thread I suppose. My point is people are sure as hell not created equal (except before the law) – that’s just PC nonsense. It’s not the primary education that sets people apart although superior training/education may make all the difference with similar cognitive ranks. The differences we’re having to deal with in the high schools and the colleges are to a large degree the differences in the people who are surging into these narrow channels. Which is why immigration is a big problem for the existing USA black population who have the most to lose with these floodgates open.

    So do I think we should re-direct any resources to immigrants when we refuse to teach blacks (or the rest of the proletariat) how to drive a car in urban high schools? Or to swim? Or much of anything else to make possible military enlistment or a job in industry & commerce? NO, we should not redirect limited resources to immigrants.

    I think we should reinstate all the basic education needed to start on the ladder of society (for all our citizen children) in the public schools before we help Pakistanis into Cal, Mexicans into anything or the talented 10th into college. It’s more important to provide a floor below which 50% of the OUSD blacks can’t fall (the drop rate) than to cater to the favored few. We wouldn’t have the drop rate if the OUSD schools provided a program these students saw as valuable to them (not college prep – vocational, industrial and technical). College prep can be available but never forced down throats to the point of 50% of an ethnic walking out. Teaching standard Conversational English to all is more important than teaching college prep algebra to the brights.

    That’s only my feeling and I’m biased in favor of the urban blacks returning to the days of the mid ’60s when things were expected to be ok and get better. This is in no way the position of the ruling democratic party of CA and the USA.

    Brave New World.

  • Turanga_teach

    95% of people who’ve accepted as gospel extremely questionable assertions on IQ and ethnicity do not respond when asked to cite data.

    I looked it up myself, but since I’m genuinely not willing to link to the white supremacy webpages that extol it more directly, you’ll all have to settle for a Hatewatch blurb which doesn’t have Nextset’s exact figures:


    Suffice to say that the dude “compiling” this horse@#$t was a college student in 2009 and has since evidently disappeared off the face of the map.

  • Nextset

    Hmmm. What do you think of Charles Murray and his work??

    He a crackpot?? Not a serious researcher??

  • Steven Weinberg

    Nextset, according to Paul Tough’s excellent book about Geoffrey Canada, “Whatever It Takes,” James Heckman, a professor of economics at the University of Chicago, and the first person thanked by Charles Murray in the Acknowledgment section of the book, wrote that Mr. Murray was right in his assertion that scores on the Armed Forces Qualification Test (AFQT) closely corresponded to outcomes such as long-term unemployment and becoming a welfare recipient, but wrong in conflating the AFQT with IQ. Murray (and you, Nestset) claim that IQ is a basically immutable quality, but the results of the AFQT are not. “Heckman pointed to studies that showed that children who were born into a disadvantaged family and then adopted by a wealthier family scored better than their disadvantaged peers on tests similar to the AFQT, which would be impossible if the quality those tests measured was truly inherited.” (35-36).

  • Nextset

    Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

    Nothing you are saying requires the conclusion that IQ is not immutable.

    Remember, within any family grouping of children there will be a range. Moreover, the decision to join the military from your adopted family, as opposed to shooting heroin, isn’t random either. I don’t see you have established any study large enough or random enough to make your point. I read your comment that SOME children born poor and adopted rich scored better than born poor and stayed poor and took the test.

    I don’t have enough data from your references above to conclude this “study” was large enough, etc. to conclude “always” rather than “some” which is what you are reaching for.

    IQ once established by late adolescence does not magically increase by teaching. Sorry, it seems to be an immutable fact. Our students are whatever they are and the differences become clear by puberty and the following years. Some are able to handle increasingly complex material cognitively and others cannot. And the difference is noticed in behavior where duller students exhibit short term & present oriented thinking and the brighter students progress into longer term orientation, play a better chess game and get arrested less even if they are jerks.