Hall of a dilemma
By Jerry McDonald - NFL Writer
Saturday, February 2nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm in Oakland Raiders.
Here is my problem with electing Ray Guy to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
How can you vote to enshrine to send arguably the greatest punter of all-time to Canton, Ohio when Ken Stabler isn’t there?
Or Cliff Branch.
Or Lester Hayes.
Or Jim Plunkett.
See where I’m going with this?
It’s not that punters aren’t football players. They are, or they wouldn’t be in uniform every Sunday. It’s just that the way the voting is set up, it makes it virtually impossible to vote for a punter when position players are backlogged and waiting to get in.
You don’t have to sell me on Guy’s skills as a punter. Back in the early 1970s, my dad got the opportunity to buy two Raiders season tickets when they were tough to get. On Sept. 23, 1973, with the A’s in the postseason, the Raiders played at Cal against the Miami Dolphins, who entered with an 18-game winning streak and were coming off an unbeaten season.
The Raiders won 12-7 on four George Blanda field goals, but what I remember most of all was sitting near the top rim of Memorial Stadium and seeing punts higher than eye level.
I don’t remember what Guy’s stats were that day and it doesn’t much matter. Stats are misleading where Guy is concerned anyway. The Raiders were an elite team, so it’s not as if Guy was always punting from deep in his own territory. That his career average was 42.4 is remarkable considering the quality of teams he played on.
Colleague Bill Soliday, who saw every game Guy ever played, is famous for breaking out the stopwatch and clocking hang time. Guy still has the most hang-time of anyone he has ever clocked _ 5.3 seconds.
I talked to the late Hank Stram once for a story on Guy and while he was complimentary, he made it clear he thought his own punter, Kansas City’s Jerrell Wilson, was equal or superior.
Soliday tells me they were close, but Guy was better. I defer to Bill on all punting issues.
But let’s face it, as good as Guy was, the Raiders weren’t a great team because of their punter. To say he won them two games a year is probably excessive.
Take Guy out of the picture and Stabler goes a few yards more to pull out the game. What Guy did that day against Miami at Cal was light years behind I saw Stabler do the following season in the “Sea of Hands” game against the Dolphins in the playoffs.
(Best choice I ever made. Going into the playoffs, my dad told me I could pick which playoff game to attend, and my sister would get the other one. I took Miami, of course, because the Dolphins were the defending champions and reasoning that if the Raiders lost, I’d go to one game and she wouldn’t get any. As it turned out, I went to one of the best playoff games ever and she watched the Raiders get slammed by the Steelers the following week).
Davis made one of his most brilliant draft picks when he took Guy in the first round of the 1972 draft, because the Raiders were so loaded with talent in those days a punter was just about all they needed.
But if you asked John Madden before most any game, “You can have Stabler or Guy,” or, “Art Shell or Guy,” or “Branch or Guy,” and you know what his answer would have been.
As much as I like Stabler, Davis does more stumping for Jim Plunkett, who won two Super Bowls as opposed to one for Stabler.
The selection process simply makes it impossible to reconcile putting a punter in over either Stabler or Plunkett.
Kicker Jan Stenerud made the Hall of Fame, but it’s going to be difficult for any other specialist to sneak in. What the Hall needs is a separate process for selecting a specialist. Maybe you don’t do it every year, to keep it as exclusive as possible. Or you pick no more than one and make the mandatory percentage so high that in some years there aren’t any.
As painful as it is for Raiders fans, the specialists wing ought to have an endless loop of Adam Vinatieri’s 45-yard field goal field goal in a snowstorm.
They’ve got areas in the Hall of Fame for announcers, and, God forbid, sports writers. And a punter can’t make it?
It isn’t that Guy isn’t worthy. It’s that the system is flawed.
More Hall of Fame snap judgements:
– It’s only going to get tougher for Guy in coming years. Next year alone, Rod Woodson and Bruce Smith are virtually slam-dunk selections, and it’s hard to imagine Cris Carter not getting in.
– If Carter doesn’t make it on the first ballot, I’d be surprised if Tim Brown did when his turn comes up. There’s a feeling out there that Brown was like a high scoring guard on a bad basketball team. Somebody is going to score points, and going for 25 in a one-sided loss doesn’t make you an all-time great.
My own feeling? Brown’s early success as a return specialist will help him and he’ll be in the conversation. But if Branch isn’t in, I have hard time seeing Brown in Canton.
– Don’t even get me started on Lynn Swann, who wasn’t in Branch’s league but made it courtesy of NFL Films and his juggling mid-field Super Bowl catch against Dallas.
But it is exactly that sort of play which Brown doesn’t have on his resume _ a signature moment or game which separated him from everyone else. I’ve heard the argument from a selector or two that he is a package of statistics who never did anything truly extraordinary.
– Woodson was already going to be a Hall of Famer before he ever got to Oakland, but I’ve got no problem with featuring him in the media guide as a Raider in the Hall of Fame because he might have been the second-most important player behind Rich Gannon to the club’s last AFC championship.
Woodson’s 97-yard interception return against Denver on Gannon’s near-perfect Monday night turned the entire season around.
– Leave it to Woodson, to one of the classier guys you’ll ever meet, to add a dose of perspective to the life-and-death NFL Network coverage of the Hall selection. It’s as if those who didn’t make it were scarred forever.
“As a player, you have to take this with a grain of salt,” Woodson said. “There are worse things than not making the Hall of Fame. At the end of the day, if you have your health and your family, that’s all that matters.”
– If former Vikings guard Randall McDaniel is still hanging around with 12 Pro Bowl selections, and Miami’s Bob Kuchenberg is still waiting, don’t look for Steve Wisniewski to get much run when eligible.
As selectors are fond of saying, Wiz would fall into the category of the “Hall of Very Good,” but not necessarily the Hall of Fame.
On a Roll
Brian Roll takes over as the Raiders strength and conditioning coach for Jeff Fish, who accepted a job with the Atlanta Falcons.
His resume looks impressive enough, but can he throw a pass? Fish was threw one of the nicest balls on the team and often worked with defensive backs during training camp drills.
The Chad campaign
Disgruntled wide receiver Chad Johnson, according to Pro Football Talk.com, made a pitch on Jim Rome’s ESPN television show to be dealt to the Raiders.
Heck of a talent, but do the Raiders want to go down this road so soon after Randy Moss?
Johnson is under contract through 2010 and is scheduled to make $3 million this season, $4.5 million in 2008, $6 million through 2009 and $5 million in 2010.
Is it just me, or can’t you just see Johnson looking for bigger money before that deal is up?
Haggling with Davis in public over money is never a good idea.
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February 2nd, 2008 at 5:11 pm
sign chad up, end of story.
I agree, Jerry. So many Raider greats should come before Guy, who statistically wasn’t even the best punter of his era..
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Jerry,
Look at who Tim had as QBs. That has to say something about his greatness.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Placing Ray Guy in the Hall of Fame over Stabler, Branch, and Hayes is an easy choice. He is acknowledged to be the greatest punter of all of time. That cannot be said about the other Raider greats at their respective positions. If the NFL does not want to give credit to a punter, then it should do away with the position all together.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Kenny Stabler wasn’t that good, he was not a hall of fame quarterback.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:23 pm
The thing that gets Tim Brown in is he’s basically 2nd to Rice in almost every statistical receiving category, AND did at one time hold the NFL record for punt returns, and multiple pro bowls, AND he did go to a Super Bowl. Heisman Trophy winner. Carter is real good statistically as well, the problem with Cris Carter is he had his demons and never made it to a Super Bowl, even tho he had plenty of playoff teams he played for. To me, at least, you have to smell the big dance. You just have to. JMHO.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:25 pm
I don’t know what is would take in trade to get CJ but it looks to me like his contract at those salery levels is very reasonable for a play of his caliber. I wouldn’t reject him because he might want a big payday in four years. A lot of NFL carreers don’t even last that long.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:28 pm
OG,
I’ll keep saying it over and over; Brown did alot with almost nothing. Hostetler and Gannon were the only two reliable QBs he ever had. Cris Carter had a young, healthy Culpepper. Nuff said.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:30 pm
CJs salary is nowhere near what we wasted on Moss. He is definitely a bargain at those numbers. I say if they can work out a deal witn Cinci, do it.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:40 pm
76, you’re exactly right. Plus Carter had Randal Cunningham in Philly, Rich Gannon and Brad Johnson before Daunte. He had good players around him. Tim Brown did it with unbelievable natural ability, class and a ton of heart.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:45 pm
No wonder the Bengals dont want to get rid of Ocho… They have a pretty good deal for the weapon they have.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:46 pm
I see you guys need a history lesson from a long time Black and Silver Raider. Both Stabler and Hayes belong in the Hall of Fame. Understand the statistical era both played in. Stabler was one of the greatest clutch, 3rd down passers in NFL history. He showed up in big games. He played against the Steel Curtain, the Purple People eaters, the Orange Crush, Louie Kelcher, Fred Dean and Gary “Big Hands” Johnson ( I don’t mention Dallas’ Doomsday Defense because rarely did the twain meet). Real defenses, in a time when offense was not favored. Stabler was one of the most accurate passers ever, had the respect of his team, inspired confidence, lead many 4th quarter comebacks, second only to Staubach in his era, was 2 minute clutch, and was great at exploiting defenses. Didn’t he call his own plays?
Lester had a remarkable season, challenged every receiver, only had trouble with Steve Largent, matched up with Charlie Joiner, Wes Chandler, James Lofton, and brought a level of notariety to CB that was rare, ask Mike Haynes. He layed off receivers just to get some action, just so they would throw his way. I saw him make up two steps so often, it was a personal challenge, becasue he would not be inposition to intercept, else the QB would throw it elsewhere, he had to barely recover in time to deflect the ball. After the superbowl he gained like 30-35 pounds, and was never the same again, but between the stick ‘em, the 18 interceptions (including clutch playoff ones) he is deserving as well. Guy is deserving as well, much more so that Cliff Branch, who was fast but Bietnikoff was consistently more productive.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Anyone gonna watch UFC tonight….curious about Brock Lesnar… Dont wanna spend 60 bux or go to Rickys… Ive been in my pj’s all freakin day :/
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Im supprised there wasnt much Raider news this week i was expecting a ton. Hopefully the next few wont dissapoint.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:27 pm
If you would have believed all of the hoopla we should have a new HC, a new DC, playing in a new city, etc.
What will they report next?
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Im curious to see. It should be funny whatever it is.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Just in Jamarcus Russell to demand trade…
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:36 pm
The way these so called journalist report, I wouldn’t be surprised to see such a thing.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Raider Ant you are correct in you statements, and Staber did call his own plays, in 1977 my daughter bumped into ken stabler in of all places Woolworths in alameda shopping center south shore I think it was and got an autograph out of it that i still have, it was on an Arthurs resteraunt napkin.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I just got on the board so please forgive the out of context post…
We HAVE to sign Chad if possible and cap friendly. Randy Moss was not the problem in Oakland. As stated many times by me and others, Al Davis and the lack of stability have been the problem. Granted, we have no reason to believe that will change, thus making the Chad signing no different than Moss. That being said, if Kiffin sticks around and Al does relinquish some control to Kiffin, we must get Chad. He’s got a chip on his shoulder and would be a major spark plug. I recognize losing will enable his poor demeanor but he will be in a situation where 6 wins is considered a success around here and he could take credit for the little progress we might make. It will be good for JR to have a guy like this, plus it helps the development of Mike Bush.
As for Ray Guy, this has always been difficult for all the reasons Jerry mentioned. You have to put Stabler and other Skilled Position players in before Guy makes it. Guys only chance of getting in will be when the nominees are diluted and are mostly offensive line based. Just my opinion.
Ocho Cinco in Oakland for ‘08!
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Clarification…6 wins is not a success in my book. My sentiments were that 6 wins would indicate progress and excitement and Chad could put a stamp on JR’s development.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Would love to see CJ in S & B. That’s no B.S.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Agreed Saintkaufman
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Here’s some news that the “press” will break shortly: The Raiders brain trust, led by the Godfather himself is thinking of using the overall #3 or #4 on this guy Treblinka Horlanka, who’s a holder in the Russian American Football league for the Kerblinsk Steelworkers(5-3) team. Horlanka 5′9″ 155lbs,5.50 40 meters, apparently is an excellent holder having helped the place kicker NEVER miss an extra point. Apparently Trblinka has keen eyes, steely nerves, great holding ability, and his only fumbled snap was in his rookie season.
Now why we would possibly spend the overall #3 on a holder, but you’d have to ask Peter King or Chris Mortenson. They obviously have ALL the answers.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Al trades Jamarcus Russell for SaintKaufman.
Russell to become working stiff, SaintKaufman to hand the ball off and mostly throw 2 yard dig routes to Chad Johnson.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Good one OG!
Damn, a 5.5 40? Get him!
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:03 pm
I wonder how rusty Bush is going to be when he finally gets on the field. The guy has never played at NFL speed. I hope he and JR work their butts off this summer.
I bet Jamarcus reads this blog. What do you guys think?
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:04 pm
LoL treblinka even!
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Saintkaufman….
I think bush will be like when animals gets loose in the spring after a long winter. Horses, dogs or even cows, they get so excited, they become silly and childlike.
Bush will come out steaming!
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:11 pm
I hope he’s a big steaming pile of badass!!
Been a long time for his unveiling. Maybe everybody will have forgotten about him and underestimate his power and catching abilities.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:15 pm
i love all this spygate stuff finally coming out. they’re last 5 seasons are tainted. I LOVE IT.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:19 pm
He’s gonna be the man. He has alot to prove. Plus since he didnt get to show his stuff his senior year and the combine, he needs to work for a contract with some meat. We got a steal with him.
7/25/2007: Signed a four-year, $2.165 million contract. The deal included a $500,000 signing bonus. 2008: $295,000, 2009: $460,000, 2010: $550,000, 2011: Restricted Free Agent
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Now the big question is…does the league actually investigate this like MLB did the steroids thing, or does the golden child and golden team get yet another slap on the wrist, and high praise?
now for my psa[it aint cheatin if you don't get caught, but once you get caught, you're a damn liar and cheater, and should be punised as such]
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Thanks for the info Krowlz.
You’re right, what a deal.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:23 pm
I dont think the NFL is going to make a big stink about it, itll fall on deaf ears. I think its gonna take years for it really to come out. We are only now hearing about 2001…
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:25 pm
I think they’ll give it a couple of weeks IF the Patsies win.
If they lose, I see the gloves coming off and a full blown investigation into this horse crap. I’m buying front row seats if it goes down, I’ll tell ya that!
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Offense should be better if we get LT and WR. I think we need to upgrade the D-lie in this draft its fairly deep. Ocho cinco would definatly be the best choice over the other FA WR this year.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Believe me you guys a lot of players, coaches, writers from around the league read this blog. It’s popular. It’s a good blog.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:31 pm
There’s just too much money involved for the feds to not check it out. Imagine if we found out the Powerball was rigged or the World Series fo Poker, etc.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Lets anylise Jerry McDonalds Column. Dysfunction,perception and free agency from yesterday
Dysfunction,is an academic and applied discipline involving the scientific study of mental process and behavior.
Perception,Is the process of aquiring,interpeting,selecting and organizing sensory info.
Free agents,are players without a team.
Therefore, I beleive our first pick should possess,smarts,discipline and the need to think and react violently.He should aquire his target and let him know his senses are about to be disrupted.Finally he should never become a free agent.He should always be a Raider.
So when you look at it scientifically the number one pick should be Chris Long.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I’m down with that Once upon a time in the west.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:54 pm
yeah it would be great so see Long aboard.
There should be a salary cap for draft picks. Dont make sense to pay a guy so much when hes not even proven. Maybe it would make them try harder too.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Here´s espn’s Gregg Easterbrook:
The only Journalist I know who kept questioning the League and Pats actions almost every week in his column, maybe because he´s not really a sports journalist.
Anyways, he wrotte this today, very worthy:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/080202&sportCat=nfl
Compare that to the idiotic articles Peter King and Len Pasquarelli wrote in a feeble, idiotic attempt to absolve the League and the Pats from any wrongdoing.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Id love to find out it was Al Davis that leaked the info about the Pats. Stick it to the man!
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:59 pm
reposted:
The NFL HOF doesn’t mean squat anymore.
We know how great they were.
That is all that matters.
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:00 pm
By the way, Jerry…
If you have the time, It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the issue, you are clearly a big sports fan, you have lots of experience as a journalist and we trust you in here.
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Bob…thanks…. good article
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:21 pm
anybody who would rather blame Al Davis for Moss’s play rather than Moss for Moss’s play does not need to be a raider fan…
because you are too damn stupid to be regarded as such…
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Even if it was his ‘fault’ that would show how week he really is….52 other guys didnt give up and they had the same boss.
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:26 pm
*even if it was Al Davis’ ‘fault*
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Say Florida Pete……Thank you!
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:36 pm
welcome
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:38 pm
OCHO CINCO would be a great addition. I don’t think his discontent was for lack of balls thrown his way, he gained over 1,400 yards this past season. I think his displeasure with Cinci lies somewhere else. One thing we do know is he gets along with #52. Now if he can get along with #2, all I can say is OH MY GOD.
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Moss went to a prefect fit the CHEATERS PATSIES! Kiffin or AL (both)had no choice but to dump him! Moss rough childhood or not is no excuse to being a quiter!
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Seen it on news wire that an unidentified source said the “Patsies” Patriots filmed the Rams final walk through the day before the Superbowl!
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Tim Brown is second to Rice in alot of catagories.. and he did it with 15 different QBs throwing him the ball.. and 6 different Head Coaches.. i didnt count Rices or Carters QBs and Coaches.. but i can pretty much guarentee you that they were half as many as Brown.. and Also.. Rice put up those numbers on some very good teams.. Brown put up those same numbers on alot of crappy teams.. it would be a complete disgrace if Timmy wasnt a first ballot HOF.. i often wonder how well Rice or Carter would have performed if they had as much instability as Brown had to endure.. JMHO
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Great Point Tomycar. How many pro bowlers played with Rice??? Brent Jones, Roger Craig, John Taylor. How about Cris Carter?? He had Mike Quick, TE Keith Jackson, Keith Byars, with Minnesota he had Robert Smith, jake Reed and eventually Randy Moss. Who played opposite Tim Brown??? Yep, Swervin Mervyn, and Alvis Whitted. Enuf said.
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:25 pm
I really believe the NFL is becoming like the WWE ..I wonder if legally it had something to do to put the word “ENTERTAINMENT” instead of Federation!
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:33 pm
We all remember the fuss over instant replay and what not ,they installed it but with specific rules and HOW funny that in the last two minutes of the half it has to be initiated from the booth .
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:42 pm
as usual, another thoughtful, well written perspective. thanks for your awesome raider coverage. i look forward to reading your blog every day.
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:47 pm
What may help Tim Brown out is all the return yardage he had on top of being a WR.
Native… The WWE changed their name after losing battles in court with the WWF..World Wildlife Fund.
The WWE did have to re-register with the government as a sports entertainment company though since they have a predetermined outcome.That event should have the NFL owners shaking in their boots with the feds wanting answers from them
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Marley, thanks for the link in #42. Easterbrook approaches the subject in a very professional manner.
February 2nd, 2008 at 10:10 pm
anyone out there who doesn’t think tim brown is a fisrt ballot HOFer is either retarded or, well, really retarded.
while jerry rice had joe montana, steve young, and jeff garcia throwing balls to him, timmy had to deal with the likes of jay scheoder, todd marinovich, vince evens, ect, ect, the list goes on. he truly only played with ONE quality QB(appologies to hostetler, love ya): rich gannon. brown’s numbers speak for themselves. plus he was a punt returner, and a damn good one, for the majority of his career. you can’t trash a guy for playing for bad teams.
PS….in addition to my thought on timmy, it completely blows my mind that lester hayes is not in the hall. BLOWS MY MIND.
February 2nd, 2008 at 10:14 pm
plus, all the “great” teams brown played on we’re teams whose primary focus was running the ball…with the exception being 2001-02, of course. the ‘90-91 team had some guy named bo jackson, did it not…running the “ground walsh” offense.
February 2nd, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Hey Florida Pete…would you beat up Moss had he produced in Oakland the way he’s producing now? Exactly! You have no idea because we can’t come close to surrounding someone like him with that kind of talent. Entirely related to Al Davis and his inability to nab a good coach and retain him for any length of time.
Just because I’m a Raider Fan doesn’t mean I can excuse common sense.
I recognize Moss quit on the team, but I’ve got news for you, there aren’t many Tim Brown type players in this era. No big name talent is going to accept losing and remain a fierce competitor when he knows there is no hope. The only team with those kinds of players are the Colts and Patriots, and that’s because they have a philosophy and solid foundation based on chemistry. That can’t happen in Oakland as long as your boy Al is running things.
February 2nd, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Jerry I get where youre comin from but consider not only who TB had at QB, but the quality of coaches and teams he was on. The guy went through coaches, OCs and still kicked ass. He doesnt have that ‘great moment’ caught by NFL films, but theres a pretty impressive body of work and hes in the elite with TD catches. Its tough as a Raider fan to not think this isnt another of those suspicious situations where its ‘because hes a Raider’. He had consistently good seasons over a long period of time, and was un-coverable for most of that time. This after suffering a bad knee injury and many people saying his career was over because he no longer was a burner. The first year after the injury many said his carer was over, but like a pitcher learning to throw a knuckle ball after is fastball has left him, TB became a possession guy, long before it was in vogue. If the TDs he caught arent enough as a whole, then the system is not only flawed but broken.
February 2nd, 2008 at 10:56 pm
“But it is exactly that sort of play which Brown doesn’t have on his resume _ a signature moment or game which separated him from everyone else. I’ve heard the argument from a selector or two that he is a package of statistics who never did anything truly extraordinary.”
I couldn’t agree more. Brown was the king of second half stats because the Raiders were behind and Hoss was chucking it every down. My signtaure play memory of Brown is when Tui came in to almost lead us back against KC, but Brown catches the ball two yards short of the endzone. Game over, loss Raiders. Someone said he played with natural ability, heart and class. Well, he had ability, never quit like Moss, but lacked in the class quality. He is/was all about himself, and almost left us to play for the Broncos. I can’t stand him on that FSN show.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:23 am
You guys want to know how the league and the press will address the Patriots and the new allegations? The same way you guys address less than flattering stories on Al Davis:
“There’s nothing to see here.”
“Just haters starting rumors.”
Enjoy the shoe on the other foot.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:11 am
Patriots up 7-0.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:58 am
BOOM! Ray Guy used to LAUNCH those punts!
Possibly the greatest player ever at that position.
Agree on Chad. My sims show Roy Williams over Ocho and Berian!
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:35 am
The Raiders could use Berrian @ the right price and Porter if he wants to come back also @ the right price..Just 1 good WR is not enough! Chad ain’t going to do it alone nor is any other free agent out there. Chad is way too much money wise they be better serve to use that money to re-sign Ndamdi.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:04 am
They Call Me Assassin Says:
February 2nd, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Hey Florida Pete…would you beat up Moss had he produced in Oakland the way he’s producing now? Exactly! You have no idea because we can’t come close to surrounding someone like him with that kind of talent. Entirely related to Al Davis and his inability to nab a good coach and retain him for any length of time.
Just because I’m a Raider Fan doesn’t mean I can excuse common sense.
I recognize Moss quit on the team, but I’ve got news for you, there aren’t many Tim Brown type players in this era. No big name talent is going to accept losing and remain a fierce competitor when he knows there is no hope. The only team with those kinds of players are the Colts and Patriots, and that’s because they have a philosophy and solid foundation based on chemistry. That can’t happen in Oakland as long as your boy Al is running things.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Would i beat up on Moss if he had a year in Oakland like he’s having in NE???
did I read that right…
would i still be critical if he had done great???
would i still be complaining if there was nothing to complain about???
if moss hauled in every pass that came within 18″ of his hands when his elbows were planted in his ribs would i still be whining???
if moss had knocked down every ball that became an interception instead of saying, “i’m sorry, my hands are over here…” would i still think ill of him???
if moss had bothered to tackle those people who had grabbed those interceptions instead of saying, “you wouldn’t have had that interception if i had caught it…” would i still harbor a grudge against him???
well, i guess not…
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:47 am
Every position should be represented PERIOD,if they’re not why have them.This is not about Guy per se but about every player that steps on that field.What the voters are saying is You don’t matter enough to be considered.Should Stabler and other players be enshrined..of course ,but why should it be at the expense of a position that is not recognized by most writers as important.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:59 am
The HOF is a joke. Kenny Stabler was one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play the game. Ask Shula and Knoll to name a few coaches who played against him. Yet, Stabler is not in the HOF. They induct guys like Jim Kelly who has never won a Super Bowl and couldn’t hold Stabler’s jock strap. There are alot of players who are in the HOF ahead of better players. That’s because the sports writers do the selecting and they have biases based on things other than the players performances on the field. Anyone who is not biased who watched Stabler play throughout the 70’s knows what a great quarterback he was. Stabler was not a big media guy. He didn’t like to give interviews. There are writers and sportscasters who are black balling Stabler by not voting him in the HOF because of his lack of cooporation with the media during his playing years. The system is corrupt and needs to be changed. How the hell do you justify putting sports writers in the HOF and not a great player.
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:11 am
i think i can safely say that there have been a lot of great quarterbacks through the years…
it’s the nature of the position…
high profile, high pay…
but Lester Hayes…
he was awesome… playing a position that has had few exceptionally good players through the years…
i would say it is easier to find an outstanding QB than an outstanding cornerback…
even after the league banned stick’em… Hayes was still great…
one of the greatest to ever play that position…
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:11 am
Well put Bunyan — it’s the ESPN idiots (and other so-called writers/reporters) that got the Nation in an uproar with all the rumors about coaching changes, location changes, etc. They are like paparazzi or ambulance chasing lawyers — they love trauma and drama. Not to say that Big Al doesn’t bring some of it on with his delusions of grandeur, but hey report with some accuracy and the Nation can deal with the rest. I have a Ken Stabler jersey and still wear it proudly. He was a TRUE Quarterback back when Quarterbacks had cojones and actually got hit! Forget the HOF — now my focus is on defending my team when I wear my Raider attire. I’m STILL IN!
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:40 am
doc raider… you could have written that post without the attack on Al Davis… it doesn’t even belong in your post…
but let me comment…
delusions of grandeur??? al davis…
hmmm… let’s see…
is it delusional for al davis to think that as majority owner of a franchise he gets to make the calls???
you don’t see davis out there doing commercials, even back in the Raider heyday… when the path to the Super Bowl almost always went through the Raiders… Al Davis was never a publicity hound…
he is and always has been, focused on the Raiders… but that’s his business isn’t it…
delusions of grandeur… ya gotta be kidding…
it’s like to qualify something someone says… they believe it will be more relevant or sincere if they throw a little trash at Al Davis…
what a bunch of crap.
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:41 am
Jerry, I see your point about Stabler, Branch, et al not being in the Hall and I agree that they should be there. However, they were not the best that’s ever played at their position. Ray Guy is. Every other eligible player at every other position that has that distinction is in the Hall of Fame. Including kickers.
Ray Guy should be in the Hall of Fame, and he should have been selected this time around.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:42 am
Bob Marley…Thanks for the link to Gregg Easterbrook’s article. All I have to say is; What else is new? This league has been a corrupt “old boys club” for a long time now. Remember the flip-flopping, contradictory explainations of that disgusting “tuck-rule” nonsense? Took them a while to get their story straight on that one, didn’t it? I’d love to see congress get involved in “spygate”, but I won’t hold my breath. I’m sure old “Krafty” has lots of friends in the halls of power.
Who knows; Maybe the league powers are all Masons and Kraft is the Grand Pooby-Wooby or whatever?
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:57 am
Jerry is right; the system stinks. Guy should be evaluated for the Hall by comparing him to other punters. He remains the bellmark by which other punters are compared. His hangtime set him apart. As the best ever, he should be a first ballet selection.
I disagree with Jerry on a couple other points. It is true that the Raiders won a lot of games because they were the better team, but in close games with the other elite teams, the Raiders often, it not always,won tight games because they won the battle of field position because of Guy’s kicking. Also, Wilson was the second best punter and I don’t think it was that close between them. The Raiders could usually count on at least one long return against KC each game because Wilson regularly outkicked his coverage. Because of the hang-time, long returns against Guy were almost non-exhistant.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:58 am
Does anyone else want to see the GIANTS win today just so moss doesnt get a ring.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:58 am
don’t forget Tom Flores. What other retired coach with 2 super bowl wins is not in the hall?
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:01 am
i think more than anything else, Ray Guy’s trademark was angling the football out of bounds…
then we got to watch the refs somehow calculate where the thing crossed the sideline…
sometimes their judgement was a little off…
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:24 am
I would have to agree with Albert Bigelow Paines’ ghost just because you have very good players waiting to go in doesn’t mean you dismiss someone who is regarded at being the best at his position. It doesn’t matter that his position is not considered essential. You can bet in a playoff game trying to hold a lead in the last few minutes of the game and being forced to punt, you want a damn good one doing it. You guys who pick Jerry if your one of them, you are just a farce for looking at it incorrectly.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:27 am
Kicking to the corner was a skill that Guy developed and became quite good at. He had also been an all-conference defensive back in college and was regularly involved in the tackles. In fact,coaches worried that he would get injured and wanted him to back-off and let others make the play. He was a well-rounded talent.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:28 am
Guy was a punter. Which happens to be an NFL position, whether some want to admit it or not. The other players mentioned were not punters, and were not considered the best at their positions by many league observers. It’s that simple. Guy should be in.
I’ve read Paul Zimmerman articles in the past where he has said that he wouldnt be voting for any more Raiders in the HOF because there were already too many. Of course Im paraphrasing, but what he said was along those lines.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:30 am
has anyone , other then me checed the NFL rule book for this alleged
TUCK RULE”!!! i have up &down back then, and to this day i cant find it!!! i dont think that RULE really existed ! SERIOUSLY!!!
what no one here realizes is that
(cause i am the only real raider fan,REST OF you all aRE” ROBRYAN GROUPIES”O.K.)
THE 2 minute time out part of the game is called only to ” REVIEW THE CALL, & LOOK FOR A “BAD CALL” BY ANY ONE REF,
NOT TO- ” REVIEW ” or “REINTERPRET”
THE “RULE BOOK” and see if a different call could or would APPLY!
which is what they did! they
( “the nfl”, anti al davis types jerry seaman,not to mention other assholes like him)
needed to be called on that asap by the raider boothe,
1st off AMY TRASK, shouldve never been the one to call over to the nfl boothe to see what the problem was during the review!
her quote was ” if you reverse this u
better call 911, cause i’m gonna have a heartattack”
what good would that do! she made it easier to reverse the call on a ‘NON RULE”
why didnt al davis, bruce allen,jim otto etc make thecall, & threaten them with any of the following.”
you cannot use the 2 min timeout to see if their is a rule thatapplies differntly then what was called, you can only check the integrity of the fumble/CALL ON FIELD!!!,
we also have membeRSof the media on their way over to our boothe, so we can alert the public to wat your are gonna try to smoke by them & us!!!”"”
‘” i got coach gruden on the phone down below,we are not going back on field if you reverse this #1, andyou better be rite #2
we need several mnutes to look at the rule book to see if it applies!till tHEN
our team will not step back on field!!! “” THIS ACTION IS WHAT NEEDED TO BE TAKEN! THIS WOULDVE NPPED IT IN BUD!!!! I TOLD VERY ONE THAT WEEK, THAT WE SHOULD BEAT THIS PATS’ TEAM HANDS DOWN, EXCEPT FOR THE CALLS/ “NONCALLS” ALL GAME KONG THE “NON CALLS ” IS WHAT THE PATS’ LIVED OFF OF !!! AND TO THIS DAY THE PATS’ ARE STILL LIVING OFF THE NON CALLS! IT IS THAT SIMPLE!!!! WITH THIS TYPE OF ANIMOSITY TOWARD AL DAVIS & OAKLAND , HOW CAN ANYONE TRUC THAT F’N ROBRYAN!!! HE WAS THERE , WHICH MAKES HIM PART OF THIS N.F.L. PATRIOTS FRAUD!!! THAT ASLO EXPLAINS WHY BURGESS PLAYS S.D.E HUFF PLAYS STRONGSAFTEY! & MOES/HUNTLEY TOLLEFSON ETC ALL GET CUT !!!
HEY LOOK @ TODAYS ROSTER! NE- HAS RASHAD MOORE STARTING, RANDY MOSS STARTING, GIANTS HAVE TOLLEFSON, & BOOTHE!!! THIS AINT NO COINCIDENCE!!!
i’ll call it now , this post is factual, & accruate , based on reailty & facts!! not one of yoy RYAN GROUPIES THOUGH WILL AGREE WITH IT!( it s pro raider)all you’ll do is whine ( like d.b.s’ ) about ‘CAPS LOCK” !!! GO AHEAD PROVE YOUR FINAL IGNORANCE!!!
I HAVE GIANT , PATRIOT,STEELER, PACKER, CHARGER PEOPLE I KNOW LOOKING AT YOU ALL TODAY !!
THEY CANT BELIEVE THAT YOU ALL ARE THIS BLIND TO ROBRYAN,& LANE KIFFIN BEING THE ONLY FACTORS TO ANOTHER 4-12 SEASON!!
THE SMART FOLK ( LIKE ME ) CONSENSUS IS
90% RYAN , 10% KIFFIN! SO 7 LOSSES ON RYAN 0 WIN. KIFFIN GOT .50 WIN PER , DUE TO THE ONLY GOOD THING HE DID WAS BRING IN KNAPP!
KNAPP IS WHY WE GOT 4 WINS, SO WE GIVE KIFFY A 1/2 FOR EACH WIN, THAT MAKES HIM 2 WIN 5 LOSSES!!!
IF
OAKLAND REPLACES RYAN WITH A RAINMAKER,THAT PUTS
THE ONUS SQUARELY ON KIFFY FOR 2008 ,
IF THEY START THE SEASON @2-2 OR WORSE HE NEEDS TO GO&BE
REPLACED WITH ANYONE THAT DOESNT HAVE A “AGENDA” OF HIS OWN!!LIKE LANEY HAS PROVED IS WHAT HE IS ALL ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS THAT SIMPLE!!!
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:35 am
SP2 Here it is but it is Bull SHIRT,We were robbed if, you look at the play in slo-mo the ball touched Bradys left hand at that point, contact would mean FUMBLE
^ NFL Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2, Note 2: “When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.”
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:54 am
Ted Hendricks…
you hit the nail on the head…
because i do think that is the real problem…
not really an anti-Davis thing either…
but really, just so many Raiders already in the HOF…
and maybe a little anti-raider sentiment as well…
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:59 am
i’m not sure anyone west of greece should be drinking at this hour…
soul patrol… are you hung over???
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:01 am
Nice points in #78 NorthernRaider. Undoubtedly so.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:09 am
Florida Pete, soulpatrol’s mad rant was something new at least. His blaming of Ryan for everything including climate change was at least a tad bit different than those here who wish to blame Al for all things considered. Same lunacy applying.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:13 am
position players
That is the key ! Ray Guy was and still is the BEST at that POSITION, many players have played that position and NONE have done what ray guy has done playing that position. if stats are another key to getting in to the HALL his stats should have put him into the HALL years long ago !! many of players have been placed into the HALL OF FAME with lessre stats, therefore i believe ray guy should be voted into the HALL. This has been such an injustice to many players who deserve to be in the HALL OF FAME who have played there POSITIONS with greatness!!
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:14 am
Jerry…your best article to date, love your personal insight. I wished I had been there with you at the “”Sea of Hands” game, one of my all time favorites.
I can remember watching this game at my girlfriends house and she wanted my attention while the game was on and would not leave me alone so I locked her in the closet. Thank god her parents were not home.
Ray Guy was one of my all time favorites, he always gave us good field position and anyone who would down play the importance of special teams does not know football.
Your list of Raider players that belong in the “Hall of Fame” is one more reason why the Raiders need their own Hall of Fame at hopefully will be their new stadium.
If the Raiders are going to get back to the playoffs, they have to build top grade “O” & “D” lines first. If they do not protect their 60 million dollar investment in Russell, our return will be that much longer. If the Giants have any chance against the Patriots it will be because their “D” line outmatched the “O” line of the Patriots. The Superbowl winners always have the best linemen period.
This opens up a can of worms…but if the Patriots cheated their way into a Superbowl win against the Rams, then they should be stripped of that victory. But it would have to be very damning evidence.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:16 am
see guys, rite away 2 igorant d.b.s’ and 1 who actually thought it was worth a response!!! wait till you see the rest!!!!! this is too funny!!!!!
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:25 am
Mad Road Dog, in the stands that day when Malone ran a long one in for the go-ahead score giving the Dolphins a 26-21 lead, my father looked at the clock and said to me, “Good thing they scored quickly. We get the ball back with plenty of time.”
Everybody knew that Kenny would make it happen somehow. It is what he did time and again. To say there was joyous bedlam when Clarence Davis clutched the ball amid that sea of hands…it was the only time I was ever a part of storming the field after a game.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:39 am
If you have ever locked your girlfriend in the closet during game time….you might be a Raiders fan….Mad Road Dog you made me choke on my coffee with that story ^5
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:52 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8jHdqO2QmM&feature=related
I’m glad to see the spygate is alive & well this morning on NFL, ESPN, etc.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:00 am
Florida Pete, Im drinking but thats to help with the pain of a non silver and black superbowl.What a waste of a perfectly good Sunday.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:02 am
Did someone say there was a game on today?
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:02 am
Definative proof & commentary—
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZqc6VK_ti4
Once upon a time in the west Says:
^ NFL Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2, Note 2: “When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.”
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:06 am
If a player of “Ocho-Cinco” caliber openly WANTS to come to the Raiders, well, then we need to take advantage of that. As much crap as people talk about how “nobody wants to go to Oakland”, this once again validates the LURE & MYSTIQUE of playing in & for the Silver & Black. Getting Chad Johnson now would be like if we got Moss 3 years EARLIER in his career. Besides, Oakland could use his undenyable production, even at the expense of his antics. He could make the Blackhole even more popular than it already is.
Otherwise, let’s trade with Detroit for Williams and Rogers.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:09 am
I’m convinced. If in Johnson’s own words he wants to play here, well then by all means take him. His salary is not outrageous and he does not quit on his teammates.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:14 am
RaiderTW,
Thanks for the link if you watch the play Bradys left hand touches the ball a fraction of a second before Woodson hits him.At that instant the foward pass is over and he is now in possesion of a live ball. Like woodson said”GAME OVER”
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:17 am
saintkaufman..post 99
Yeah, apparently there is some sort of exhibition game going on today.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:17 am
Merry stuporbowlday to one and all, even Al haters.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:17 am
Thanks chumps.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:18 am
Is it just me or do all Raider fans have a tightening in the gut whenever they hear the words, “the play is under review.”
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:19 am
Much like John S said before..
I don´t think I have ever wanted a team, other than the Raiders, to beat another one as much as a I want the Giants to win today.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:27 am
I think I will watch the puppy bowl on animal planet.I dont think thier owners condemn cheating.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:28 am
OOPs condone cheating.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:33 am
Thanks Bob Marley, just heard about it this morning.
By the way, really like your studio work!
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:34 am
Ray Guy had a cool name too
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:36 am
A couple of recent WR moves and what they went for:
Branch – 1st
Chambers – 2nd
Walker – 2nd
Welker – 2nd and 7th
D Jackson – 4th
Moss – 4th
I’d like to get Chad Johnson for the same as Welker if possible.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:38 am
Could Spy Gate be the Patriots Barret Robbins?
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:38 am
Wonder if Goodell, with all the heat coming his way has let the Referee know that it is okay to not swallow his whistle when the Pewks have the ball.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:41 am
M…Stabler has to be one of the favorites of any Raider fan, you always knew that given enough time he could get it done. I love the way he threw the ball. Stabler made that throw as he was falling down and that catch by CD with the Phins hanging all over him has to one of the grestest catches of all time
Jh…it only worked because she was one of the biggest joksters around and had a huge rep for pulling gags. Thank god most of them were on her brothers, she was a very clever gal. Don’t miss her though, she was not a Raider fan.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:48 am
Where is that raidergirll
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:54 am
M
I would think, because of this whole deal, that now we can at least rest assured that in this game the refs won´t have any effect on the outcome.
And to be honest, if they lose today, I´m past it.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:57 am
If people don’t want to put punters into the HOF, then they should stop paying them altogether because it doesn’t make sense putting them in a uniform and making them feel like a football player. They might as well let these guys come out and kick because they want to and let them dress up in jeans and a shirt because they aren’t worth a damn. Even Peyton Manning said his kicker at the time (Vanderjagt) was not a football player. I wonder how many games Vanderjagt won for Manning when they needed that last minute victory and Manning couldn’t pull off the Touchdown?
If anything…all kickers and punters should go on strike until the HOF can start recognizing them as people who did their best for their teams. It doesn’t matter how they did it…it matters that they did it and it should be considered discrimination for not letting them have a piece of the pie. Can you imagine what life must be like in the locker room for some of these guys? 51 men telling the punter and kicker that they can’t hang out because they are irrelevant and not important?
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:01 am
um…
are there any cheerleaders in the hall of fame???
just asking…
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:01 am
They should take punters and kickers out of the game for 1 year and continue to pay them just to find out how much the teams appreciate them. Just wait until the offenses end up going 4 downs and out on their own 10 yard line. The other team is only going to have 10 yards to get a TD. Talk about the pressure being turned on. Then you can tell those players that they’re not that good because its obvious they need a punter or a kicker to save them from their own mistakes.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:08 am
Damm Huff24 you are on-fire….
Were you a Kicker at some point?..
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 am
and did they tell you not to hang out with your teammates?..
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:10 am
Huff24, Mike Vanderjagt had 11 game winning field goals in his career.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:12 am
Ron Jaworski has just picked the Patriots to win 70-0. He was also visibly upset when Steve Young insisted the Giants would score a field goal.
Developing…
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:13 am
Give me your pick and score Madden, huff24..everyone
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:15 am
What do we have to give up to get #85? I don’t see the Bungles giving him up for a 4th round pick….
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:19 am
Huff, ever read Mark Twain’s short story, ‘An Excerpt From Captain Stromfield’s Visit to Heaven’? Think you might like it.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:19 am
Ray Guy’s snub is no doubt and arrow shot at Davis. That’s an easy one for them, because they can always play that “come on, he’s a punter”, card.
Plunkett is who the Raider people ought to really be campaigning for, and it wouldn’t kill them to make his ethnicity an issue. This is one of the few Mexican Americans to ever play in the league, and he’s accomplished more than most of any race. He was also the first minority quarterback to win a Super Bowl (and, he won 2 before another minority qb would win one), with Doug Williams being the first black quarterback to do it, years later.
The Raiders should really put the heat on the HOF voters to put Plunk in. Make them look like a bunch of racist gringos if they don’t.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:21 am
Marley, My pick:
The NFL, it’s game officials, it’s advertising machine, it’s press, and the New England Patriots – 35
New York Giants – 20
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:22 am
uh… i don’t know about making an appeal based on race…
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:23 am
score one, Tuck boy hurt on second play, Giants 27-10
score two, Eli regresses, mayhem ensues, P’s 52-3
too many variables.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:24 am
Plunkett is not Mexican? He’s a native American isn’t he?
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:24 am
New England Patricias – 31
New York Giants – 20
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:25 am
Let me make this clear…
If Jerry Rice NEVER existed. Tim Brown would be #1 on the stats listings. Do you guys realize how powerful that is? Rice had nothing but consistency built around him when he came into the league. You can certainly credit Rice for having the greatest work ethic over anybody but Rice had Montana and Young and both those QB’s are considered HOF people. Don’t forget about Jeff Garcia because he was pretty good with the Niners as well and T.O. was on the opposite side. The 49ers were STACKED during the years he was there and if it wasn’t for the Cowboys in the early 90’s…the Niners would have been the ones winning those Superbowls.
Tim Brown never had that luxery. There have been MANY bad teams with great receivers and those great receivers don’t have the kind of stats that Tim Brown has. He was Mr. Reliable on a team that consisted of Jay Shroeder, Billy Joe Hobert, Vince Evans, Donald Hollis, Jeff George, Todd Marinovich and many more crappy QB’s that I can’t think of right now. Hostetler was the best QB Brown had ever had and he wasn’t something to write home about. He was good but not great.
Brown finally got a great QB when he got Rich Gannon and there are alot of people who still don’t consider Gannon great for the things he did when with the Raiders. Then there was Kerry Collins.
Now…Brown even had his lapses at times. Sometimes Brown would drop some of the easiest passes and I think that had to do with his lack of focus due to frustrations or maybe because the ball was thrown to him so often that you just can’t be perfect. All I know is…I have been a Raiders fan since 1989. I grew up with Tim Brown and I remember Brown being the offense. He was literally all there was to look forward to watching in regards to the skill position. He had guys like James Jett and Raghib (Rocket) Ismail on the other side of him. WOW. Don’t stop the presses.
1 player can only do so much.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:27 am
Born to Mexican American parents with an Irish-German grandfather on his paternal side .[1], Plunkett’s father was a news vendor afflicted with progressive blindness, who had to support his blind wife along with their three children.
from Wiki
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:27 am
Bob Marley – Thats funny. I couldn’t kick a ball if my life depended on it besides…I’m a “real” football player, not a kicker. lol
j/k.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:28 am
Plunkett is Mexican. So is Romo.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:29 am
The sad part is…most kickers and punters are bigger than me. They’d probably kick my butt. lol.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:32 am
Huff24…lol.
Give Jano a six pack, a couple of vodka shots and he´ll probably kick plenty of ”real” player butt´s.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:35 am
MaddenRaider – Playing the race card would be interesting…especially when the HOF voters put Tony Gonzales in as soon as he is eligible. I can’t wait until they say, “See…we’re not racist. We put Tony Gonzales into the HOF.”
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:36 am
MaddenRaider…I´m gonna agree on this one..
Pats 38 NYG 16
That being said…go Giants!
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:36 am
Bob Marley – I can’t imagine fighting against a Drunken Polish Janikowski at 6′2 260 lbs. He could literally kick people to death.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:38 am
M – Never read it. I did read Huckelberry Finn and I think I read another story about Finn’s buddie Tom. I can’t remember.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:38 am
I agree with Jerry to a point. Cliff B., Stabler, Hayes, and Plunket are all deserving. Brown is also deserving when he’s up. Ray Guy needs to be there becuase he truly was the best at his position. What about Tom Flores? He has 2 super bowl rings! What the hell I want to see him get in before he dies. This is a damn shame that he’s not in.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:43 am
I never play the score game. Its too unpredictable. I don’t do it with the Raiders, I won’t do it now. Anybody notice the Patriots put it into 2nd gear when teams starting whining about the Patriots running up the score? Belichick said that he expects his offense to score everytime they’re on the field no matter what because that is their job. Well…you’ll notice that they stopped beating people down. Look at the Charger game…I really believe the Patriots did what they needed to do to win the game and nothing more.
I just have a feeling the Patriots want to break all the records they can and now they can go after the Superbowl scoring record. If the Patriots put it into full gear, I can definately see them running up the score. I’m afraid of what it might look like when its over.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:43 am
I Dress In Black,
If we won the coin toss with ATL our draft pick would have a value of 2,200 points.If we lost our pick would have a value of 1,700 points. The Bengals pick at #9.Their pick has a value of 1,350 points.So if we flip/flopped picks you are saying Chad Johnson has a draft value of.If we had the 3rd pick 850 points,which would = a 1st round#20 pick. Or if we had the 4th pick would = a 2nd round pick #55 It all depends what the Raiders think CJ is worth.
But with that being said you need 2 willing trade partners.
I would make the trade myself due to the fact we could get a good DT or offensive lineman not to mention the cap savings.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:45 am
Huff…
are you thinking 72 – 9 ???
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:46 am
MaddenRaider- #130 hilarious. you got that right! (except the score. Go NY Giants!!)
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:46 am
I wonder why no one ever seems to appreciate Dave Dalby. All worlder Jim Otto stepped aside after ‘74 and the Raiders never missed a beat. A quarter century of football and only two centers in all that time.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:53 am
Here let me ask you guys this would you trade say the #3 overall and Stanford Routt/and or Fabian Washington for #9 overall and Chad Johnson??
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
# Florida Pete Says:
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:22 am
uh… i don’t know about making an appeal based on race…
…….
Why not?
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:56 am
Oakglenn,
YYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:59 am
After a quick look at stats and awards, I can tell you that celebrated HOFamers Namath and Griese have nothing on Stabler.
They were before my time so I can´t tell you I watched them but check this:
Stabler:
Career Stats
TD-INT 194-222
Yards 27,938
QB Rating 75.3
Career Highlights and Awards
4x Pro Bowl (1973, 1974, 1976, 1977)
NFL 1970s All-Decade Team
AFC Player of the Year 1974, 1976
1974 NFL MVP
1976 Bert Bell Award
Led NFL in Passing Touchdowns in 1974 and 1976
Super Bowl Champion 1976
Of particular note regarding his career, Stabler was the quickest to win 100 games as a starting quarterback having done so in 150 games, he broke Unitas mark, later Montana and Brady passed him.
Namath:
Career Stats
TD-INT 173-220
Yards 27,663
QB Rating 65.5
Career Highlights and Awards
Pro Bowl (x5) (1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1972)
All-Pro 1966-1969 and 1972
AFL All-Time Team
1x Super Bowl champion (III)
1969 AFL MVP
1968 AFL MVP
1969 UPI AFL-AFC Player of the Year
1968 UPI AFL-AFC Player of the Year
1974 NFL Comeback Player of the Year
Bob Griese:
Career Stats
TD-INT 192-172
Yards 25,092
QB Rating 77.1
Career Highlights and Awards
6x Pro Bowl Selection (1970, 1971, 1973, 1974, 1977, 1978)
2x AFL All Star (1967, 1968)
Miami Dolphins #12 Retired
1977 Bert Bell Award
2 time Super Bowl Champion
Griese was known for passing little in some games, leaving the game up to Miami’s running game. In Super Bowl VII, Griese passed the ball only 11 times, completing 8. In Super Bowl VIII, Griese completed six of his seven passes.
COME ON!.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Sorry for the long post, but I had never before compared those numbers, I´m shocked and pissed now.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Florida Pete – I wouldn’t be surprised. Especially when you consider all the talking the Giants have done. They obviously didn’t pay attention to the 1st game they played in week 17. If the Pats are known for learning from video tapes which SpyGate would indicate then the Patriots have a full game of week 17 to break down and 2 weeks to do it. The Giants are in trouble.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Sorry to get back to the draft and trades but, remember there goes either Dorsey, McFadden, Chris Long or Sedrick Ellis AND either Routt or Washington. Losing your nickel corner wouldn’t be the end of the world but losing Routt who actually played well??? I don’t think I would do that. Seriously. And I like #85.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Puppy Bowl on animal planet,Man that blk/white dog reminds me of Matt Millen,that guy was a true raider.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Remember Huff, the Giants have two weeks as well. You guys this whole game boils down to the Giants D line against the Patriots O line. That’s the entire game right there,and as I’ve said a ton of times on this site, you can’t rush Brady from the outside, watch how quickly the ball leaves his hands. You gotta rush that turd up the gut to be successful. Which means either Dorsey or Ellis to me.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
So many Great Players came and went when the Raiders Greatness played like Raiders. I have asked one of them, why he was not called upon to help the Now Faiders? This old Retired Raider Pro Bowler told me, “he and a few others did received call”s if he and others would coach at some level of the now Faiders”!! He went on to say, Al Bundy Davis is like our Military Leaders in Iraq = complete chaos ! So I took that as a “NO”. He then went to say “Raider Fans in his day payed for entertaining win’s, now there’s no entertainment to be found”.
Just sell Baby, and so it is !
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:17 pm
MaddenRaider Says:
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
# Florida Pete Says:
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:22 am
uh… i don’t know about making an appeal based on race…
…….
Why not?
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
because it demeans the truth of the accomplishment… and that is that Flores won 2 super bowls as the head coach of the raiders…
flores doesn’t need the advantage/disadvantage of being a minority…
i won’t get into the whole EOE thing…
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:19 pm
I would not give the pick of a D-lineman. Having Russell and Johnson sitting on the sideline exchanging pleasantries while the D can’t get off the field because the D-line is not good enough, well, that scenario sounds quite poor ro me.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:25 pm
All Stabler had to do was predict his Super Bowl 11 victory, and he’d be in. Perhaps he can make up some ground by showing up drunk on sidelines of prime time games, and hitting on female reporters.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Florida Pete,
What is the “eoe thing”?
And what’s wrong with pointing out race, if it’s true?
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:31 pm
And Pete, how would pointing out ethnicity demean any accomplishment? It never did, in my eyes. I don’t see Plunkett as some sort of irresponsible welfare queen because he’s recognized by many as the first minority quarterback and the only Chicano quarterback to win a Super Bowl. Do you? If so, why?
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Oak,
You would get Aqib Talib the #1corner on the board,or Vernon Golston the #2 DE on the board,OR Leodis McKelvin the #2 corner on the board .All playmakers like CJ.WE HAVE TO SHAKE UP THINGS WHAT WE HAVE IS NOT WORKING.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:33 pm
eoe – equal opportunity employer or something extremely similar…
it’s a generic term for “color blind”…
i do think it is demeaning to the accomplishment if Flores is perceived to be given a pass into the HOF because he’s “brown”…
really, he should get in because of his accomplishment as an NFL coach…
not because he was the best “mexican-american” NFL coach…
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Giants 37
Patriots 34, OT
This will be the first OT game in Superbowl history!!
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:35 pm
mr west…
were you shouting into oakglenn’s left ear???
or right???
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
O-line, D-line, O-line, D-line… the rest takes off from there.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Sorry Guys I am just passionate about our team.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
So West what you’re saying is basically we replace the corner, possibly upgrade there and then the trade is basically a Potential Stud D linemen for a very Good WR. I wouldn’t do that. Good WR’s are the easiest position on the field to stock. Good QB’s and stud DL’s are REALLY TOUGH. See Raiders years 2003- present.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:43 pm
West you got great points, don’t worry, you do a good job.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Equal opportunity employer. Got that. Sorry, Pete, I’m slow with all the political chat room codes.
Why do you quote “color blind”? It has a hint of mockery…
I don’t think it’s demeaning at all to Flores’ accomplishments if he’s recognized as the first minority and first Mexican American head coach to win a Super Bowl, nor would it be demeaning if the Raiders played on that, for both him and Plunkett, to pressure the HOF voters. It’s not to ask them, “vote him in because he’s Mexican”. It’s instead to ask them, “are they not in because they’re Mexican”? It’s a fair question to ask, even if the answer is no.
You quote “brown” too. I can just visualize you doing the sarcastic finger quotations, a la David Spade. Why so?
And, the point I’m making is that Plunkett and Flores should already be in because of their accomplishments. The question to ask is, why aren’t they? And, why shouldn’t the Raiders at least ask the question if race is involved?
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Oak,
Yes We know what CJ is.Potential is a dangerous word the draft is full of potential that couldnt play. Also history says it takes 3yrs for a drafted wide reciever to grasp the speed of the NFL.I agree that stud D-Lineman are hard to come by.IE your previous posts about the Patriots and Giant D-line and their draft pos.
The 3 players from post 166 are a crapshoot like any other draft pick.CJ is a proven player.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:55 pm
i think the only race involved in their not being selected is because they are both silver and black…
and honestly… think about this…
plunkett’s career was not so great until he did get to the raiders… it was not so much offense that won those two super bowls as it was an amazing defense…
flores did not enjoy nearly as much success in seattle as he did with the raiders… he ended his coaching career with a 97-87 record… in context of his entire career and career record… he may not be a HOF head coach…
Jimmy Johnson also is not in the HOF, and neither is George Seifert…
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Great points, Pete. But I still see no harm whatsoever in the Oakland Raiders asking the race question regarding Plunkett at the very least, if not Flores as well. This country has come a long way ridding itself of racism. But merely not discussing the racism that still exists is not going to make it go away. The elephant in the room theory would apply to this just so much as it would apply to some drunk guy in a room harassing all the women, which reminds me, if Joe Namath is in, Plunkett should be in, too.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
You guys enjoy the game. I’m off to my father’s pad. He’s got a bigger tv, and more food.
And, go Giants! Take down the evil empire.! Eli, the future of democracy rests on your soldiers…
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:10 pm
West, there’s a real philosophy about that. Brian Sabean the GM of the SF Giants baseball team, (whom I hate) feels that way. He’d rather trade 5 prospects for one REAL major leaguer. And he’s done well with that philosophy until recently. So, it is out there and guys have won that way.
Trading the #3 overall and Fabian for the #9 and CJ, I would strongly consider doing. Fabian regressed in front of all of our eyes and I don’t know why. In training camp, he made Nnamdi look like ME out there. He was that good. And then he regressed. Routt actually played REALLY WELL, again all things considered. So Routt I would not throw in on this deal. I am sure the coaching staff would never consider giving up on either of those players, at least not just yet.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Namath has to be the worst QB in the HOF…
winning percentage was like .400 in his career…
50 % passer…
he’s in more because of notoriety than anything else…
kinda like voting for someone because you vaguely remember the name…
Namath was not special… i still remember him crying on national tv about being told to ditch his participation in the “3 Bachelors” night club…
he was more lucky than good… and he wasn’t that lucky…
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Martin Luther King Jr. used the race card and he changed the world. Why can’t Tom Flores play the same cards?
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Oakglen,
That is the great thing about this blog it lets a few armchair GMs like you me Fl Pete.MR,Marley,Huff24And the rest of us talk Raider football. BTW where are you South Texas and our across the pond GM Scottish.
By the way I am A NY Yankee fan.
We know why Fabian regressed just ask Soul Patrol 2 on second thought please dont.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
what’s funny is Plunkett is the guy AD pushes for the HOF,yet AD wanted Pasterini over Plunkett before Pasterini broke his leg.at the time the fans wanted Plunk and the only reason he got his chance was Past. got hurt.that being said-the HOF is a total joke until the original Lefty12-Ken Stabler-is inducted.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:59 pm
More rantings about Stabler.If he would have played in the west coast off. used today,his numbers would have been of historic proportions.He was Mr. accurate before that was the main concern.Stabler playing for Bill Walsh would have been a thing of beauty.
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:11 pm
BTW Jerry-great article.I was also at the “Sea of Hands” game.it happened right below me.I almost jumped off the 3rd deck(not really).that is without a doubt one of the greatest games in NFL history,not just play-off history-NFL history.I went to school with Manny Fernandez and will never forget the cheap shot dive he took at CD in the endzone.and i used to love rubbing that game into his brother and him. what great memories!
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:24 pm
since I’m the only one here i’ll continue.To those of you who compare Lechter to Guy-PLEASE.I never saw Guy shank a punt on the opponents side of the field.Too many times I’ve seen Lechter get off a below avg. punt when backed up inside the opp. 25.that’s why Guy was special.when he was backed up he’d boom one-just as high as far.for those who never saw him,you really missed something!And Pete,Guys forte was hang time way before he learned to hit the corners,that came later.He was just a great athlete.
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:30 pm
No Lefty 12 Al Davis prefeered Pastorini to Stabler not Plunket…. he traded Stabler to Houston for Pastorini. Plunket was all but washed up and Davis picked him up to give him another try.
Don’t rewrite history …it’s interesting enough the way it really happened.
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Lefty 12 if you want to see Guy shank a punt deep in the opposing teams territory ….go back and rewatch the Raider ….Bears game in 84….the sent everybody.
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
lefty??? explain???
keep talkin’…
i’m listenin’…
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:47 pm
If you are allowed to cheat, you must repeat.
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Explain-Al traded Stabler for Past. -correct.he also signed plunkett to BACKUP pasterini.Al loved Pasterinis arm but didn’t take into account his lack of brain.Plunkett sat on the bench until Pasterini broke his leg-and the fans cheered when it happened.no rewriting,those are the facts.sorry,he may have have shanked 1 during his career.he also didn’t have alot of touchbacks either.Explain-what you say is true,plunk. was cut by the whiners and Al picked him up to BACKUP pasterini,liked he picked up V Evans years ago-to be a veteran backup.
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:54 pm
i’m trying to teach my 3 year old that cheating is not nice… that it is not good…
and that “cheaters never prosper” (remember that from your childhood?)…
but as i get even older… i realize that cheaters do prosper… even when they are caught…
somebody please prove me wrong…
please…
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:58 pm
F the patsies. They deserve to lose for so many reasons. I’m wearing a Bledsoe jersey right now to jinx them.
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:59 pm
I wonder if belicheat really thinks he’s cheating or that he’s just smarter than everyone else.I’ve heard brady alot this week and he seems to think he’s better and smarter than everyone else.at least thats how he comes across to me.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:02 pm
How do a re-tread bad coach from cleveland and a backup qb who held Griese/Henson’s jock become good? Cheating and one of the worst calls in NFL history (tuck). That’s it. F the patsies.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:03 pm
well time to watch the game.don’t like NY teams-hate the Pats but is is the last real game of the year.just hope it’s an entertaining game.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:03 pm
right now… (and i am not a Brady fan)…
he probably is the best in the business…
and he has the results to prove it…
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:06 pm
oh, and yes his first ring should have been ours…
which would have led to Gruden staying with an extended contract, a subsequent victory over whoever would have been next…
the raiders at that time were really that good…
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Florida Pete – Brady is the best in the business????
He throws 3 picks in AFC championship and you lay that on him? Give us a break. The guy is a product of the system. Where would he be if Vinatieri, Belicheat and the D didn’t save him?
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Hall of Fame???
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
as much as i can’t stand the guy-I have to agree with you Pete.how about,what was it,27of 29 the week before.the thing is he is a student of the game,always studing,like Gannon was.that’s why he’s sooo good.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:22 pm
plus his coach tells him what def. the opp. in-he has that on tape.
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Second best maybe, but I think Payton is better. He just isn’t on as good a team.
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:51 pm
The new TUCK Rule they cant stop him
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:53 pm
That Brady FUMBLE was basically the same play as the SNOW JOB, except guess what? It was ruled a fumble…
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I hope the NYG can keep the pressure on Brady No ring for Moss GO GIANTS
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Tuck rules.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Sorry tooze but bradys arm wasnt coming forward
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:08 pm
it wasn’t back then either…
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Yeah whatever, the Tuck is ancient history…
It’s nice to see what some serious d-line pressure can do.
Go Giants!
Cheers everybody
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Go Oakland
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Good grief
Where is everybody. Oh I have an idea.
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:27 pm
You guys need to pay attention to the Raiders game like the Superbowl. But that probably makes to much sense to 95% of you regular bloggers
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Yea baby, no perfection there yes!!!!!
fk u moss and brady
WOOOOOOHHHHOOOOOOOO
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
yes!Pats lose,scumbag doesn’t get a ring,and btw the Giants play the same out of date yesteryear def style the Raiders play.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:07 pm
yup lefty, and they killed the pats except for 1 drive
EAT THAT MOSS
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:08 pm
no mas… no moss… no super bowl…
no ring…
this is the end of this freaking dynasty…
good riddance…
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:08 pm
looks like plexico called the score…loved it last week on bspn radio brady talking smack about no way there held to 14 let aloone losing 17 14,,,,,,,sweeeeeet.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:09 pm
yeah he did…
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:10 pm
anyone catch lincoln kennedy on bspn radio last week, pretty easy to tell he hates em still for the bs clutch rule…..he said several times that him biekert, brady and charles woodson are standing there and brady said…why they reviewing it, IT WAS A FUMBLE. the league sucks, and the giants proved it today ….fk u randy
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:13 pm
I LOOOOOVVVEEEE IIIIITTTTTTT!The hoody is such a poor sport. Your welcome to everybody who took my advise and put the money heavy on the G-Men. God bless Eli!
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
ELI PLAYED HIS A** OFF, congrats manning family… the true class qbs of the nfl
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:17 pm
You said it Snake. The Mannings truly are the first family of the NFL. Moss = LOSER. Plain and simple.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:18 pm
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH baby, yeah that belipunk sure is a class act aint he? I guess cheaters never do win lmao!
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Lefty – Brady is no Manning (eli or peyton). Tell me, how did best QB in football do last 3 years in post season? Give him credit for having a good cheating coach, BS officiating and strong special teams play. As for Hall of Fame, Lynn Swann is in HOF. Was he best receiver of his generation?
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:19 pm
18&No. Poetic justice for those cheats.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:23 pm
I’m so so glad that the SCUM-BAG Randy Moss didn’t win the Super Bowl.SCUMBAGS like him shouldn’t ever win a Super Bowl.There is a God.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Dan-I can’t stand the guy.look at my posts.but he will get in the HOF.that’s all i said.i never said he was the best.I’d take Payton over Brady.but he will be in the HOF=East coast,3 SB wins.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:25 pm
If your not allowed to cheat, you don’t get to repeat. There is a football god and he hates the Pats.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Randy will NEVER go in the HOF, I heard a interview about him and, it was said all the powers that be will see to it he never gets in, the reason….the way he did the vikes, and the raiders is HIS legacy, and they will block it….at least what was said on radio 2 wks ago
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Branch has 3 rings. Plunkett 2.
Guy is a Raider great but using K balls Shane Lechler has been providing ammo for Guy detractors.
I agree Kickers and Punters should be in the same ilk as the Seniors committee who get one slot a year. Maybe one slot every two years and they need 80% of the vote.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Did Belicheat learn the last second fade route from Moss, or was he in a hurry to burn all incriminateing evidence…he’s done! suspended or fired, there will be some changes in NE.
Ha Ha Ha!!!
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:32 pm
I cant wait to hear that sack of tirds Sean Salsbeiry eat crow. “Greatest team ever. No way they can lose.” That guy is the ass end of a piece of crap network
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:32 pm
all the bs rumors go away and the cheaters lose, damn guys Im smiling again….decent offseason is about to begin
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Oh one last thing, where did moss disappear too…again??? Is he not happy and cant catch the ball because of it????????? LMAO, take that u piece of crap
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:34 pm
ok good and drunk and happy, happy next year all im out
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:35 pm
It was A FUMBLE!! Mwahahahhaha… GO RAIDERS!!!
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I tip my hat to the Giant’s Fan’s. The battle was won in the trenches, helmet to helmet! I did pick the Spirit of the American Patriot to winn……..No bad calls ! The Giant’s will walk proudly in the land of Giant’s
Maybe the Raiders, will be next !!
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Went to the Giants blog on the New York Post site and said congrats….They are getting the same from fans of other teams as well…..seems not many like the Patriots
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Just want to congradgulate Randy on the Super Bowl win,
Oh wait…..
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:18 pm
18-1.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:20 pm
THETOWN…right on bro, right on.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:26 pm
The truth is, Jh, nobody does like the Patriots, other than New Englanders, the league, and of course the league’s whorehouse of advertisers and “journalists”.
I demand somebody contact Ron Jaworski immediately, and put him on suicide watch. He can not be well. He predicted New England to win by some ridiculous score today, and was visibly upset when one of the other hosts dared to predict the Giants might muster up a field goal in today’s game. Remember to not be judgmental with Jaws. Be very gentle and supportive, and remove all toxic products from his immediate vicinity, along with any dangerous devices such as guns, knives, toe nail clippers, etc.
Someone should probably keep an eye on Ditka, too. But not for the same reason; Just to make sure he doesn’t over celebrate and wind up in jail.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:34 pm
I can’t wait to hear the spin machine on tomorrow’s radio shows.
Anyone notice: No congrats from Belichick in his post game interview? Not that there’s a law or anything, but most losing championship coaches in the big 3 sports congratulate their opponents. It’s American. Belichick passed. He also Buddy Ryan’d out of the stadium when time was still on the clock. All class, that guy…
And, the implosion is just beginning. Congress is investigating the league destroying evidence of New England’s videotaping, all the while, new allegations of cheating are currently emerging.
I don’t know what to say, New Englanders. Go Celtics?
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:34 pm
AWESOME!!!!! F the pats. this was the best day of my life. i gat to whitness the biggest upset ever. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. did you see bill Bs face after….and tommy boys too. i love it.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 pm
if your going to use the criteria stated in the article for voting for guy then how would you ever get say an OG or C……guy accounted for more yards in terms of field position and completely altered the game…do you think teams selected different plays than they would have liked if they werent backed up to their goal line….its a shame guy isnt there
February 4th, 2008 at 1:28 am
Thanks Jerry, great stuff in this turbulent Raider time. I saw that ‘73 game and Guy was unreal as usual. All those you mentioned should be in the Hall of Fame but especially Snake Stabler. They always seemed to win in the last few seconds around that time and I never had more fun watching football than seeing laid-back Stabler save it again.
That list also shows what a great eye for talent Al Davis always had. There ought to be some way of combining Al’s talents with a competent coach who can run the team effectively. The Raiders need to get on the ball before nobody shows up to watch-just kidding.
GO RAIDERS!
February 4th, 2008 at 6:28 am
For Ray Guy in the Hall of Fame, I think he deserves to be in, and I understand why hes not. And I agree with you when you say the system is flawed. Every year is has to be at least 4 players going in, but no more than 7? Why? If players are worthy to be there, let them in. Who cares if its 11 one year and 2 another. Baseball does it, and it doesnt make the ceremony any less special. I guess they dont want to have to hear a dozen speeches in one day, or feel its not necessary to set up an entire ceremony for just one inductee. They should only compare players to other players in their position, and of their era and before. And great players should have to wait because there is a limit, and they want to get players in from other positons.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:25 am
“Get a Grip, Raider Fans”. It is just a game. It cannot feed your family, or, pay your rent. The fact is, whether New England won (Oops, did the Raiders even make the playoff), or, New York, won the point is: The East Coast won!!! From a woman’s perspective (is this word to big?)whomever is the best team at the time wins. I salute, Manning and Brady for making football exciting, again. “Raiders, who?”
February 4th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
I think Ray Guy belongs in the Hall, he changed the game and by far was the greatest punter around. I totally disagree that Plunkett and Stabler belong. When you make a list of the greatest QB’s of their generations you don’t put their names at the top. Yes they played great for the Raiders but I can’t say they were “hall worthy.” Whereas Ray Guy, yes he truly is worthy of being there. Plunkett bounced around before he found a home, Stabler had good years with the Raiders but he wasn’t the best QB of his generation. Get on the Ray Guy bandwagon and get him in….as for the others I just don’t feel the same.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
We should make a run at Chad if he is really available. He has a reputation as a hard worker, antics aside.
As for Guy and all the other Raiders you named, they all belong in the HOF. Guy didn’t just contribute to the success of the team by punting in games, he was the scout team QB for years.
February 5th, 2008 at 6:16 am
Ray Guy definately belongs in the HOF. As far as receivers are concerned, the team needs a threat and Chad brings it every day. The thing about Randy was he didn’t give 100% on every play. Chad, though a big head, can not only stretch a defense but create match up problems for any defense and he’ll block too. If the Raiders want to play long ball, they’ll need a player like Chad, which I don’t see in this year’s draft. Getting Chad means they can then focus on the defensive line and secondary; the real problem areas for the team. For my money, I say bring Chad Johnson in so he can do just what he did in Cincy; score touchdowns and move the chains. Putting him with Curry, Miller, Madsen and Porter (if he stays) would be an exciting and winning combination. The Raiders know they can run the ball and having an established passing game would help them win more games and finish teams off when they’re able to do both consistently like, well like, the Giants.It is also hoped that Al will see the light. Kiffin needs to stay, especially since the team has had too many coaching changes, and now we have a good one. Plus Al needs to bring in John Madden to GM or something. Now that would be something.
February 5th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Come on over Chad!
February 5th, 2008 at 11:25 am
how realistic is the acquisition of CJ?
February 5th, 2008 at 11:31 am
the G-men ran a cover 2 defense against the Patsie’s maybe Kiffin is right as far as having the right personnell on board to shut down any offense all we need is a natural pass rush and a punising safety the rest will take care of itself.
February 10th, 2008 at 8:28 am
…………………….RAY GUY IS THE BEST EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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