Fins’ investment in Grove a gamble
By Jerry McDonald - NFL Writer
Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 10:21 am in Oakland Raiders.
UPDATES WITH PEARS, FOWLER NEWS
Jake Grove did an admirable job coming back from microfracture knee surgery to reclaim the job as the starting center for the Raiders.
Chances are he couldn’t have imagined all his hard work would pay off so handsomely. According to the NFL Network, Grove signed a a five-year contract with the Miami Dolphins which guarantees him $14.5 million.
There was no chance the Raiders were going to come up with that kind of coin. And considering they have a better idea about his physical issues than Miami, it was the sensible move.
Grove is a smallish (by NFL standards) but tenacious center who will find the going rough against difficult matchups in the AFC East.
The Raiders thought him better than John Wade, the man they signed to be the center when they were rightfully concerned about Grove’s physical condition.
Wade remains under contract with a salary of $1.5 million this season, and the Raiders can go about the business of finding their center of the future.
Fact is, Grove missed 26 of 80 games because of injury since joining the Raiders in 2004 and played in 19 of 32 the past two years.
Cal center Alex Mack is one of the most highly regarded centers in the country, and the Raiders have a wealth of inside information on him courtesy of line coach Jim Michalczik, his position coach in Berkeley.
At No. 7 overall, the Raiders may be picking too soon to take Mack. Another local center, Stanford’s Alex Fletcher, has a background in zone blocking and would be available later.
The NFL Network is also reporting the Raiders are hosting two Seattle free agents, quarterback Charlie Frye and right tackle Ray Willis.
Frye is a lot like Bruce Gradkowski, a player with some NFL starting experience who would vie for a spot on the roster to back up JaMarcus Russell. Willis, 6-foot-6, 315 pounds out of Florida State, saw his most extensive time in 2008, playing in 16 games with 10 starts.
According to the Seattle Seahawks on the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, the club wants Willis back but expects another team to pay him as a starter.
NFL Network: Pears signed, Fowler to visit
More news from the NFL Network pipeline: The Raiders have signed tackle Erik Pears, a lineman who was not offered a tender from the Denver Broncos and will hope to land a roster spot in Oakland, and will meet with free agent center Melvin Fowler of Buffalo.
Fowler was not re-signed in 2009 after playing in 15 games with five starts. He started 32 games the previous two seasons.
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March 3rd, 2009 at 10:24 am
The Fins can have him, He’s done nothing to put himself on the list of great Raider centers from the past.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:26 am
Good luck to him
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:27 am
Good Draft mack
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:27 am
Bill Parcells messed up on this one…he is only human after all!
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:27 am
Once guys start having microfracture surgeries, they are an absolute huge gamble. See Walker, Javon
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 am
Grove did do well against the Jets’ NT. However, I was never too impressed with him on a whole. Good for him, better for the Raiders.
Draft a C in the 2nd round.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:30 am
# ELWAY’s TEETH Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:24 am
The Fins can have him, He’s done nothing to put himself on the list of great Raider centers from the past.
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Grove was actually better than you guys give him credit for, but this statement is true. He has done nothing to put himself on the list of great Raider centers, and if you are a great Raider center, you are one of the best to play the game.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:30 am
Could the Raiders go into next season with John Wade, and expect to get off to a fast start while breaking in a Rookie Center?
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:32 am
Here is what some Seattle people are saying about Willis:
________________________________
Ray Willis and Seattle’s First Overall Pick in the NFL Draft
by John Morgan on Feb 26, 2009 2:07 PM PST 23 comments
The free agent signing period is only hours away and while the Seahawks insist they’re not big players, Seattle has never faced a bigger offseason.
Does Seattle re-sign Ray Willis?
Seattle either has no depth at offensive tackle or is outright down a man. There’s needs and then there are needs so crystal not filling them is insanity. That’s what Seattle faces if they let Willis walk. Walter Jones is on the mend after undergoing microfracture knee surgery. Sean Locklear ended the season on IR and has failed to start 11 games in the last three seasons because of injury. Kyle Williams wasn’t outright embarrassed, but was bad enough that Seattle game planned to protect him.
If Willis walks, the team will be forced to add a starter capable offensive tackle. It’s not going to find a better value on the open market than Willis. If Willis walks, expect Seattle to draft the best available offensive tackle at four.
___________________________
Sounds like they are high on Willis, and Marshall should have some idea how good the kid is…hmmm, intriguing.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:33 am
S&B,
DHB put up numbers at Maryland despite it not being WR friendly AND him not having a QB. Everything I’ve seen post combine has this guy as a top 15 pick. He ran the time that Maclin was supposed to run, and had all the measureables that Crabtree was supposed to have. For me, DHB only comes into play if you start talking about Maclin. I’d probably go with Crabtree if it were me, but were talking about Al and Cable, right? I’m not sure that Crabtree or DHB will be better than Shields or Schillens. Not sure at all. That’s why I am actually leaning towards Oline at 7.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:35 am
Raiders | Willis visiting
Tue, 03 Mar 2009 09:15:34 -0800
Adam Schefter, of NFL.com, reports free-agent OT Ray Willis (Seahawks) is visiting the Oakland Raiders Tuesday, March 3.
___________________________
okay, this may change things for the draft…
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:36 am
I wonder what the over/under is on how many games Grove will start before the inevitable injury.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:38 am
The NFL Network is also reporting the Raiders are hosting two Seattle free agents, quarterback Charlie Frye and right tackle Ray Willis.
***
Charlie Frye? seriously? why don’t we just bring in Tim Coach, Jeff George or Josh Booty again?
Who would be on the outs? Walter or Gradkowski?
Willis, finally a RT prospect. This should please S&B. After we’ve been rumored to have “interest” in LT’s Smith, Barnes & Pace, we are actually hosting RT Willis. LOL. shows how little the media knows about the Raiders. so much pie on the wall these days!
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:38 am
Interesting …
Did Willis and Henderson play together at FSU?
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:39 am
I can’t believe grove got 14.5 million guaranteed – that’s absurd – the guy was an average nfl center at best, was way more suited to play in a zone blocking system which is the opposite of what Miami plays, and he’s always injured, nicked up, etc. – plus his knees are bad – we could never run inside with him at center because he can’t move a 3-4 NT or larger DT’s in a 4-3 system – he seemed to be a smart guy as far as line calls and he did get to the second level when he wasn’t covered, but the difference between wade and grove is not that significant – Wade can either be a one year stop gap or if mack or unger falls to us in round 2 (a distinct possibility) then we’re much better off short term and long term. Adios Grove, glad you got paid though, don’t wish you anything bad, but as the best center in that year’s draft you were a bust for us.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:42 am
thats the AFC EAST jerry-my-boy
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:42 am
Obviously the NFL believes the Raiders misuse their players. They’re making out like bandits with other teams.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:42 am
Jhill,
According to Wiki:
College career
Willis attended Florida State University, where he started 35 games and teamed with Alex Barron to make one of the best offensive lines in college football.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:42 am
Talk about Gallery Being a bust, what about Grove, dude has done nothing but get hurt and pushed around by Nose Tackles and everyone else since he came here. Tons of potential, but it was never even close to fully realized.
Im sure he is a fine person.
Adios Muchacho………
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:42 am
Did Willis and Henderson play together at FSU?
***
Mario wasn’t a starter at FSU until Willis got drafted.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:43 am
Right KK ..
Dead on!
I kinda hope Sands gets cut now so I can see the meltdowns when he signs somewhere else for way more than anyone in here thinks he should have gotten, LOL!
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:43 am
Told you guys lol.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:44 am
I would bet $ that Cleveland would sign Sands to something like 5 years 16 million with 9 mil guaranteed, LOL!
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:45 am
Trade back and take Mack.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:45 am
Here’s the scouting report on willis from bspn – they rate him as a 54 overall, which is worse than cornell green – he’s not worth starter money and he’s not much better than young depth – I haven’t seen him play so maybe he improved last year with some playing time, sometimes these reports are a year old -
Willis is a massive tackle who has been a backup for the Seahawks the past three years. He has excellent size and strength for the position, but is somewhat-limited in his lateral range and agility in space. He has strong hands and is able to shock opponents as he engages. He can create movement at the point of attack and create run lanes, but does not do a great job of bringing his feet with him, which causes him to fall off blocks more than you’d like. He will show above-average initial quickness and can kickstep for the short set, but lacks the lateral range to get out with some of the better speed rushers. He will struggle in space when he has to react and right himself versus counter moves. He has some tools to work with, but badly needs more experience and more technique work with his footwork and hand use
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:46 am
Thanks Dakota and RRS ..
Naturally the FSU think got me to wondering. I hope they don’t let the guy leave. One more question answered. Then we can get into a serious, Shields-DHB-Crabtree debate, LOL!
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:47 am
Can anyone get anything on Willis? Don’t know anything about him.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:48 am
I’m glad we are not participating much in the FA game. These contracts are way out of wack. Some guy named Ron Bartell got 4 years $28 million. I never even heard of him, and I watch about as much pro football as humanly possible.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:48 am
In 10 starts Willis allowed 1.5 sacks last year …
In 10 starts Cornell Green allowed 7 sacks in 2007. In 16 starts he allowed 7.5 in 2008
oh yeah, plus 14 false starts and 2 holding calls the last 2 years with the Raiders.
Willis is also 6 years younger!
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:52 am
Good riddance to grove. I can recall countless times when this “undersized” by nfl standards 2nd round bust was literally blown right into the qb after the snap. This guy may be mean, but he also is too lean. Not near enough @$$ to handle the big beasts that clog the middle of the line. Maybe playing with the likes of Jake Long will somehow mask his weakness. Now the good news, I see Al trading down for the first time to aquire more picks as to address the needs of shoreing up both of our lines, I think, I hope, I wonder.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:52 am
Willis also spent some time at RG, could be a possibility here, as his footwork does not sound quick enough for tackle.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:52 am
Ray Willis’ agent should make a highlight reel of Cornell Green’s false starts and sacks allowed over the last 2 years playing to the tune of Beyonce’s “let me upgrade ya”
Willis would get that starter money he’s looking for!
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:52 am
Pair of Seahawks free agents visit Oakland
Posted: Adam Schefter | Adam Schefter | Tags: Charlie Frye, Melvin Fowler, Oakland Raiders, Ray Willis
The Seattle-to-Oakland flight is busy with Seahawks going to visit the Raiders. Not to mention connectors from Buffalo and Denver.
Oakland, which has had a busy offseason, is hosting visits today with two of Seattle’s free agents — quarterback Charlie Frye and offensive tackle Ray Willis — along with free-agent center Melvin Fowler. Frye could serve as a backup for JaMarcus Russell, and Willis has drawn interest around the league from tackle-needy teams. Tack on one more visitor for the Raiders today. After losing center Jake Grove to the Dolphins, the Raiders arranged a visit with Fowler, who spent the past three seasons with the Buffalo Bills.
But the Raiders did make one signing today.
Changes in Denver led to an opportunity for offensive tackle Erik Pears in Oakland. Once Denver did not place a contract tender on Pears, he became an unrestricted free agent. And once Pears became an unrestricted free agent, he jumped at the chance to sign with the Raiders, who will give him a chance to compete for playing time at offensive tackle. After becoming an undrafted free agent, Pears was with Denver from 2005-2008.
Oakland made a splash before free agency, re-signing punter Shane Lechler and cornerback Nnamdi Asamugha. Now it is making another push in the opening week of free agency.
———————
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:54 am
Jediraider, here is a breakdown of Willis’ performance in 2008, for what it is worth…sounds like the guy has problems, but the same author, John Morgan, seemed to be high on him on Feb 27th…see post #9.
____________________________________________
2008 Season Retrospective: Ray Willis
by John Morgan on Feb 9, 2009 1:32 PM PST 8 comments
Ray Willis
Overview: Willis started seven games at right tackle and three at right guard. He played in all sixteen games. Seattle sees Willis as a starting right tackle or at least a starting capable sub at guard and tackle. He is a free agent.
What Went Wrong: Willis is sometimes slow off the line. Willis is often clueless as to whom to block. Oh, that’s all. Of the potential archetypes of a successful offensive lineman, with the ever assignment correct but never flashy young Chris Gray representing one extreme and the often dominant but sometimes sloppy Alan Faneca another, Willis aspires to be a Faneca. It’s a demanding style and one unforgiving of injury. Essentially, if Willis is not physically and athletically dominating, he’s not effective.
Quintessential Game: Seahawks at Rams
Willis and Wrotto are big and bruising and bumbling. Wrotto doesn’t quit blocks, but man does he ever miss blocks. Willis: ditto. Since starting the replacements, Seattle has looked best running right. I’m not certain the rude data provided by play-by-play would back that, but the line flexes better that way, the lanes look cleaner and the blocks more dominant. Seattle has also looked sloppiest running right. There are more free defenders, penalties, linemen standing in zones and ardent triple teams while another defender runs free.
What Went Right: But oh is it beautiful when it goes right!
Quintessential Game: Patriots at Seahawks
Ray Willis is one mean pachinko ball: Willis doesn’t handle speed rushers well. He blew one block and chased a couple more. Should Seattle see him as a long term solution at right tackle, and they could and maybe even should, he’s going to need the occasional handicap chip blocker.
Guy’s big. When he uncoils, he looks like the biggest player on the field. He probably is. And for a big guy, he’s rangy; looks projectable in the way scouts love.
On the eighth play of Seattle’s first drive, Willis blindsided Bruschi and then chipped in for two more blocks to seal the inside.
Seattle sets 2 WR (Left), 2 TE (Right), Rb. The outside tight end recessed. A rare power formation Seattle flashed often on Sunday to compensate for its patched together offensive line. New England sets in a 3-4. Heller plays inside tight, Carlson on the end. At the snap, Carlson engages Bruschi but gets no push. Willis turns perpendicular to the line of scrimmage and sprints straight at Bruschi’s flank, delivering a jarring hit that removes Bruschi and with him New England’s outside containment. Carlson is freed to move up and engage Jonathan Wilhite. Willis bounces back towards the interior and blocks two unidentified linebackers. Leonard Weaver rushes for seven.
Outlook: I think the edge rush will victimize Willis throughout his career. Speed off the line and an ability to shadow speed rushers is just not a skill tackles often develop mid-career. Against elite edge rushers, Seattle will need to weld John Carlson to his hip or employ a back that can chip. That limits the kind of wide open plays and formations teams sometimes use against attacking, blitz-heavy defenses. Continued experience in a zone blocking system should help Willis identify and engage the proper assignment. That’s one skill I think Willis will develop. Still, Ray will never be a technician and his contribution to the team is dependent on his ability to contribute more on his good plays than he debits on his bad plays. His value to the team is dependent on him staying healthy and staying cheap.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:58 am
“Willis is a massive tackle who has been a backup for the Seahawks the past three years. He has excellent size and strength for the position, but is somewhat-limited in his lateral range and agility in space
but does not do a great job of bringing his feet with him, which causes him to fall off blocks more than you’d like. He will show above-average initial quickness and can kickstep for the short set, but lacks the lateral range to get out with some of the better speed rushers
He will struggle in space when he has to react and right himself versus counter moves”
Does that sound like a ZBS lineman? Even with more “power” in the scheme, a career backup?
Not sure I like the move, but Marshall may have a better idea if a companion on the O side of his former staff gave him a heads up.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:59 am
I like red dildos
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 am
Eric Pears? He started 26 games for the Broncos…
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:01 am
JediRaider Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:31 am
Coinman – if we were running a west coast offense I would agree with you, but we’re going to adjust our current scheme to a more vertical attack which means a decent number of three and outs even when it’s run very well, especially early in the game as the game plan unfolds to set up the opposing defense – I totally support this switch because it’s much better suited to JR’s skill set and our current group of receivers (and Al’s insistence on speed), but the reality of the system is that it is a big play offense so even when things are clicking, we’re getting off the field in 7 to 10 plays after a score vs. a 12-15 west coast offense. If we fielded our defense from 1999-2002 paired with that great ball control offense we had, we would have done no better than 8-8 because other teams would just play keep away by running the ball all game.
The defense is going to have to be able to stop the run if we are going to win anything next year – we have been at the bottom of the league vs. the run for 5 years and its clearly the worst part of our team and that starts up front with the dline – Warren is not a nose tackle (he’s a three technique) and Sands is a waste of space – every week the coaches said we needed to maintain our gap responsibilities and if our NT can’t take on two blockers and hold the point of attack then it screws the rest of the line – in our case our NT’s couldn’t even hold the POA most of the times vs. single blocking which means our LB’s were also taken out of the play.
If Raji is there he has to be the pick, if not we have to grab the next best NT in round 2 -
======================================================
Great post! Not just for the Raji reference, which I agree, but for your post about the direction of the offense. Another point about the vertical attack is the need for a strong running game to run playaction.
Adding Bush and McFadden works well for the vertical attack. Sort of what the Raiders tried to do back in the early 90’s with Bo Jackson, Marcus Allen and Jay Schroeder. Of course no one can touch Bo in his talent. However, Russell, Bush, DMAC is a better overall option to Schroeder, Jackson, Allen because of the better option at QB.
The Raiders used a lot of playaction to hit Willie Gault and Mervyn Fernandez down field and ran the ball effectively and hit the streaking TE (Ethan Horton) down the middle. It got the Raiders to 12-4 before getting run out by the Bills. The Raider receivers of JLH, Schilens and Zach Miller builds on that vision…I think
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80bfbbd6
The Raiders defense back then was nasty up front with Townsend and Long at DE and Davis and Golic up the middle. That front four could stop the run and knock out the QB. Getting a boss NT in Raji gets the front back to that 1990 set.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:01 am
Pears at RT and Willis at RG???
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:02 am
But the Raiders did make one signing today.
Changes in Denver led to an opportunity for offensive tackle Erik Pears in Oakland. Once Denver did not place a contract tender on Pears, he became an unrestricted free agent. And once Pears became an unrestricted free agent, he jumped at the chance to sign with the Raiders, who will give him a chance to compete for playing time at offensive tackle. After becoming an undrafted free agent, Pears was with Denver from 2005-2008.
***
the Raiders signed OT Erik Pears? I’m assuming this is Kwame Harris’ replacement …
Raider tackles: Henderson, Green, Pears & Marten. Also with McQuistan & Wilson coming off IR.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
Who in the hell is Erik Pears? Does anyone have a write up on this guy?
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:06 am
Erik Pears 6′-8″ 305 lbs, prototypical ‘Cable’ tackle: very tall and 300+ This could be the first great below-radar signing I was predicting.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:09 am
BBB,
Might not be a below the radar signing….Al might have given the kid a $50 million dollar deal!!! lol
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:10 am
Per a Donkey beat writer:
“Pears is a very smart blocker and very tall at 6’8” but only weighs 305 lbs. He will struggle with lateral movements and will get beat to the outside as we saw in 2006 when he played on the left side. Last season he started all 16 games at right tackle where he is a much better fit but he remained below average, especially in pass protection.”
…sounds like a potential replacement for Cornell Greene
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:11 am
Raiders signed OT Erik Pears, formerly of the Broncos.
Pears, going on 27, spent most of last season on the NFI list, but started 26 games at both left and right tackle between 2006-2007. He’ll likely be a swing tackle in Oakland if the Raiders draft a viable blind-side answer.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_relatednews.aspx?sport=NFL&id=3308
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:12 am
where are you guys getting your info, I don’t see any of these “signings” on raiders.com???
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:13 am
Whats Barret Robbins doing these days?
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:13 am
wow, the MOD is being a real @$$hole right now. trying to post from broncos team page.
pears is a good pickup, IMO.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:14 am
your link is for willis not pears?
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:14 am
Just for kicks…The Raiders are getting back to 90 football
Jay Schroeder = JaMarcus Russell (HUGE Upgrade)
Bo Jackson = Michael Bush (No one touches Bo)
Marcus Allen = DMAC (Marcus trailed off later)
Ethan Horton/Mike Dial = Zach Miller (HUGE Upgrade)
Willie Gault = Johnnie Lee Higgins
Mervyn Fernandez = Chaz Schilens
Tim Brown (3rd receiver) = Arman Shields / Javon Walker
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:14 am
missed most of 08 because of an apendectomy, but solid as a 2nd year starter in a ZBS.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:15 am
Last season he started all 16 games at right tackle where he is a much better fit but he remained below average, especially in pass protection.”
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This doesn’t sound like a guy who fills our need at RT.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:16 am
“much better fit at RT, but he remained below average, especially in pass protection.”
…sounds like a potential replacement for Cornell Green
***
BBB: sounds just like Conbread Green!
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 am
Good info on this willis guy. I’m all for adding any kind of depth on OL and letting them compete with guys like Wade, Paul Mcq, and Green. If we do our OL doesn’t sound so bad and maybe we can go for Crabtree (if there), LB or Dline.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:18 am
I’ll take a “below average” RT, over the “absolute worst” RT. He also backed up Ryan Clady at LT, so he gives us some youth and flexibility.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:19 am
LOL @ Jhill. sounds like we’re on the same page.
Erik Pears = Cornbread Green. both undrafted former donks that can’t pass block to save their lives!
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:20 am
Willis does not sound like a ZBS player, I agree. I just hope Cable’s ZBS and Davis’s Power schemes can co-exist without destroying both.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:21 am
Fowler the C we are looking at…he has played for the Browns, Viqueens and Bills. Drafted in 2002, 29 years old 6′3″ 310 lbs…hope that is not Al’s answer to our center problems….
year team games starts
2008 Buffalo Bills 15 5
2007 Buffalo Bills 16 16
2006 Buffalo Bills 16 16
2005 Minnesota Vikings 10 9
2004 Cleveland Browns 15 3
2003 Cleveland Browns 14 10
2002 Cleveland Browns 1 1
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
KoolKell Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:42 am
Obviously the NFL believes the Raiders misuse their players. They’re making out like bandits with other teams.
My take: it works both ways. Players that had good runs with other teams do nothing with the faderz. Bad management or bad coaching?
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
I’ll take a “below average” RT, over the “absolute worst” RT. He also backed up Ryan Clady at LT, so he gives us some youth and flexibility.
***
BBB: he spent last year on the non football injury list I thought? He didn’t back up Clady!
He started 26 games for the donks though in 2006 & 2007…
In 2006 he shared the right side of the o-line in Denver with who? Cooper Carlisle.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
I’ll take a “below average” RT, over the “absolute worst” RT.
——————————————————
Can’t argue with that. I’ll be happy with a drastic reduction in false starts from that position. He shouldn’t face too many speed rushers on the right side.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:24 am
Heard that we’re interested in Orlando Pace. How bout we offer our 3rd for Pace and Tory Holt. This could then give us some flexibility to trade down and draft. I would hope they still would address the wr position then, with Hakeem Nicks or Darrius Heyward-Bey. Who know if it only a couple of spots down Crabtree could still be there.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:24 am
Willis, Pears, Fowler = garbage in garbage out?
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 am
He started the season as Clady’s back-up in the pre-season, but had an appendectomy and ended on the NFI list. He is not the answer for our O-line (I am still convinced we need to draft Oher) but he is a more than servicable back-up, considering Henderson, McQuistan, and Greene are the only Tackles on our roster with NFL playing time.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 am
these signings are for depth, I’d imagine.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:31 am
These signings are direct evidence the Raiders feel their offensive line needs to be upgraded.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
Let me rephrase that, these signings and the signing of Robert Felton and James Marten are evidence that the Raiders feel the offensive line was the most under performing unit on the team last year. When you have a Q like Jamarcus, it makes sense to protect your investment.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:34 am
66
yup
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:36 am
Im just happy to see the Raiders focused on the OL. That is encouraging in itself. Now if we can only see some DLs come in for a visit.
Does Crabtree remind anyone else of Tim Brown? He plays a lot like him.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:39 am
as long as we don’t break the bank,let’s bring in as many OL as possible.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:40 am
Does anyone know if their are any descent NTs on the FA market??
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:40 am
Why do we always go after aging players. I know Al wanted to draft Pace back when, but come on now…12 years later isn’t exactly when we sign him. I don’t care if it came with Tory Holt.
On a different note, who knows, he may have 1-2 good years left and could probably mentor our young lineman.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:41 am
Stay away from Fowler. Unless they just want him as a backup. But he’s a bum. Overpowered too often.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:42 am
Melvin Fowler did not allow a quarterback sack in the four years as a starter at the University of Maryland. He took over center duties in his redshirt freshman year, despite having practiced at that position for only 10 days before earning the starting job. He was a model of consistency, as he started every game (44) he played in for Maryland.
****
In the last 3 years playing for Buffalo, Fowler has started 37 games and played in 46 of 48 games. 4 false starts, zero holding calls and 7.5 sacks allowed over that 3 year span.
Jake Grove (in comparison) last 3 years playing for the Raiders. played in 35 of 48 possible games, starting 30 of them. 3 false starts, 3 holding calls and 10.5 sacks allowed.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:43 am
Crabtree isnt as explosive as Timmy was, remember he return kicks in college an early with the Raiders. I pretty sure he ran a sub 4.4 at the combine.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:45 am
Stay away from Fowler. Unless they just want him as a backup. But he’s a bum. Overpowered too often.
***
more durable and productive than Jake Grove (who Miami broke the bank for). see post #74
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 am
Isn’t today the day walker gets the roster bonus…Does this just mean he is getting paid again? Or is he guanteed it because of injury? Just wondering…If he stays I hope it doesn’t cost us a milion dollars a catch again?
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:48 am
Oakglenn Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:27 am
Once guys start having microfracture surgeries, they are an absolute huge gamble. See Walker, Javon
—————————————
Once Oakglenn starts posting this blog becomes a huge gamble.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:49 am
hwnrdr,
that would be my idea is for pace to maybe mentor all the linemen that are on the roster now. And put him on the right side. All we would need is a couple of years out of him till the new guy is ready. This would apply to Holt also cuz we all know that Walker is not the best picture of professionalism. Kinda would be like when we had Lincoln Kennedy. I thought he was washed when we got him.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:50 am
I do laugh when i see some one write Crabtree isnt big enough or explosive enough to play the x wr. What about Jerry Rice ?
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:50 am
Ok, either we are crazy, or some of our “former” players were way overpaid.
Crapalo Hall – foreskins
Jake Grove – flipper
Girbil Wilson – flipper
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:52 am
hwnrdr Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:40 am
Why do we always go after aging players. I know Al wanted to draft Pace back when, but come on now…12 years later isn’t exactly when we sign him. I don’t care if it came with Tory Holt.
On a different note, who knows, he may have 1-2 good years left and could probably mentor our young lineman.
————————-
Lincoln Kennedy was considered the same. Old and washed up. He had a great career here and changed our Oline into one of the best during his tenure.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:55 am
That is what I am hoping for Boneless. Pace was an all pro for a reason and not because he sucked like Kwame Harris. As for Tory Holt, a big upgrade imo compared to Walker (unless Walker can get over all the bad ordeals of the past and get his head screwed back on straight!!!). We shall see, though.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:55 am
“Signing Grove gives Miami the center it believes it needs to combat the towering and imposing defensive tackles in the AFC East such as New England’s Vince Wilfork, New York’s Kris Jenkins and Buffalo’s Marcus Stroud.” – Adam Schefter
…LMAO
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:56 am
TERRY CLOTH POST-82 I THINK LINCOLN KENNEDY WAS CUT BY ATLANTA AFTER HIS INITIAL CONTRACT OF 5-6 YEARS SO HE WAS A LOT YOUNGER W/A LOT LESS MILES.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
This is good news, IMO, Nation.
We’re making an effort to shore up OLine and we’re not doing it the flashy, overpriced way.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
# NoMoreFargas Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:50 am
I do laugh when i see some one write Crabtree isnt big enough or explosive enough to play the x wr. What about Jerry Rice ?
———————————————–
People don’t realize Rice in his prime was one of the fastest guys in the entire league. I was watching him work out before a playoff game once and I could not believe how fast he was. I don’t think he clocked that fast a forty at the combine or whatever but he was hecka fast. Early in his career, how many times did you see guys run him down from behind. Not often.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 am
How many years left you gys think that Pace and Holt have left? I mean I thought that Bruce wasn’t going to do anything for the 9ers, but he did.
Terry Cloth: Kennedy was a beast when he was here. With the Wiz…wow…could we get that line back?
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 am
I dont want them to sign Pae, but I would love to get Holt. That guy gets you a lot of YAC.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 am
Fowler is more durable, true. And he is a smart center. But trust me, I’ve watched the guy in Buffalo games and he is not strong. He gets pushed back and he cant move anyone off the line. The Bills rushing game was horrible – Marshawn did all the work himself. Even with Peters, Dockery and ol Langston on the line, they could not run the ball.
Like I said, Fowler would be an OK backup, but nothing more.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:59 am
If this is the year we are supposed to compete for the division, with an eye towards consistent playoff participants the following year(s), I don’t want any older vets that we will have to replace in a year or so. Let’s make a decision on a young RT and C and lets get a line that will be together and stable for a long time.
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:59 am
Paci is held together by bondo,I do not want him
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:59 am
PacE
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:01 pm
DIRT LOT FOOTBALL Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:56 am
TERRY CLOTH POST-82 I THINK LINCOLN KENNEDY WAS CUT BY ATLANTA AFTER HIS INITIAL CONTRACT OF 5-6 YEARS SO HE WAS A LOT YOUNGER W/A LOT LESS MILES.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
Possibly, however, he was still considered a bust / washed out player.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
RaiderTay Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:55 am
“Signing Grove gives Miami the center it believes it needs to combat the towering and imposing defensive tackles in the AFC East such as New England’s Vince Wilfork, New York’s Kris Jenkins and Buffalo’s Marcus Stroud.” – Adam Schefter
…LMAO
———————
That’s hilarious. Schefter should stick to reporting instead of scouting. There is no way Miami “believes” that.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
4evaRaider Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 11:59 am
Paci is held together by bondo,I do not want him
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Who cares if “you” don’t want him. He would be a good addition, even if it was in a backup role. Torry Holt wouldn’t be worth the money.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
I actually think Fowler would be a worthy signing. He would be an upgrade over grove IMO.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
I meant to say we
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
I would be an upgrade over Grove. Anyone would be.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Yeah, but isn’t the Rams trying to shop Pace and Holt for a package deal?
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
The Bills rushing game was horrible – Marshawn did all the work himself. Even with Peters, Dockery and ol Langston on the line, they could not run the ball.
***
Peters had a TERRIBLE season. Dockery was cut and we all know how overrated Langston Walker is first hand. I’m not saying he’s dominant, but he’s better than Jake Grove. Lynch did it by himself? Willis McGahee & Fred Jackson had similar success running behind Melvin…
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Yeah maybe, but that doesn’t mean a team has to accept it Hwnrdr. And it’s not as if Pace or Holt have very many options at this point in their careers anyway.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Grove and Fowler are about equal – both should be first-off-the-bench backups at LG, C RG. I would rather get some younger guys in here who are hungry.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:08 pm
I am hungry Turducken. Lunch time.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Fred Jackson is about as relentless as Marion Barber – he does a lot himself too, like Marshawn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuyLPecZXQs&feature=related
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I would rather get some younger guys in here who are hungry.
***
I agree in that I’d rather have Mack or Unger, but I wouldn’t be upset with Fowler, Wade & Morris competing at Center. we only have so many draft picks
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
I agree Terry. Well, I guess…when is the deadline for Walkers contract? Hopefully he does accept a reduced contract and stays for a lot less. But, Al screwed the pooch on that one. Note to self: If someone wants to give me back all of his money and retire…ummm….TAKE IT BACK!!!
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Its good to see the Raiders try to get some O-Line help. Looks like they are going to sign someone to man the RT position. I would still like the Raiders to address the RT and C positions in the draft namely:
Round 2 – Max Unger C, Oregon
Round 3 – Troy Kropog RT, Tulane or Trevor Canfeld RG, Cincy – Depends on whether Cooper Carlisle comes back
Slide McQuistan to RG and the O-Line should be good to go. Add some free agents for depth and competition is fine as well.
Of course the Raiders could be going with McQuistan at RT and looking at this Wills guy as a starting RG. Then Cornell Green stays, restructured of course, for depth purposes.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
yeah Turducken, the Bills didn’t need a Center the past 3 years …
Justin Fargas, Darren McFadden & Michael Bush don’t either. Right? they can do it by themselves!
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:16 pm
[...] Fact is, Grove missed 26 of 80 games because of injury since joining the Raiders in 2004 and played in 19 of 32 the past two years. Fins’ investment in Grove a gamble – Inside The Oakland Raiders – A look inside the world of t… [...]
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
RRS- I’m just sayin is all. Fowler aint the answer. We have a long history of quality centers and we need one that can dominate for the next 7+ years.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Isnt javon Walker due like 5,0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000unless he gets the ax or renegotiates his contract today
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
If we sign Fowler, I’d have to think it would be for a long term deal. I don’t think we would draft a C and sign Fowler with Wade and Morris on the roster. Wade and Morris are adequate backups, so I see no sense in upgrading a backup position.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Also with Kropog, for those who want more competition for Henderson, you can have Kropog / Henderson compete for LT and move the loser over to RT.
Strengths:
Good size with a large frame…Great athleticism…Very light on his feet…Quick and agile…Excellent pass protector…Smart with good awareness…Good mobility to get to the second level and pull…Moves well laterally…Natural knee bender…Technically sound…Uses his hands well…Nice balance…Outstanding work ethic…Tough…Has a fire in his belly…Lots of experience…A team leader…Still has some upside.
Weaknesses:
Has done a good job of bulking up but could stand to add a little more weight…Needs to strengthen both his upper and lower body…Is not very powerful…Doesn’t get a great push in the run game…Might not be a perfect fit for every team…Has a history of minor shoulder injuries.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
JHill Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
If we sign Fowler, I’d have to think it would be for a long term deal. I don’t think we would draft a C and sign Fowler with Wade and Morris on the roster. Wade and Morris are adequate backups, so I see no sense in upgrading a backup position.
======================================================
You are probably right. Depends on the size of the contract. I would rather see a Max Unger or Alex Mack in there though. The Bills have a need for a Center and they let this guy go. Might be the equivalent of Jake Grove for the Raiders.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:22 pm
he gets the ax or renegotiates his contract today
***
thats what Paul Wexler said. he’s a tool though
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Turducken
Just an observation. I don’t believe that the bills run the ZB scheme. If they do then the rest of this post is mute. Denver for years had one of the better rushing attacks in the NFL with smaller quicker linemen. Have no idea how agile Fowler is but I would trust Cable and the new coach from Cal to be able to judge if the player is a good fit for our system.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:24 pm
I hope he restructures than gets cut!!!
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:24 pm
RR-with this year being one of the best and deepest years in the draft for C we have to get one.wade,morris and anyone else we bring in (FA) could fight it out for backup or play while whoever we draft gets up to speed.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Assuming we do sign this Willis and Fowler, that’s two more positions scratched off for high draft picks.
Sorry guys, but I smell WR at #7. We really only have JLH, Schillens, and Shields on the roster. None of these guys were ever as highly regarded as Crabtree or DHB, so adding either one of them to the mix can not be a bad thing.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
The Bills have a need for a Center and they let this guy go.
***
Thats not true. The Bills signed Geoff Hangartner
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Javon Walker is not going anywhere. He represents the Apex of Raider mistakes and bad judgement last year.
I didn’t like the signing at the time and the contract given to Walker is crippling this team. Raiders could have signed T.J Houshminzadeh if they didn’t give all that money to a guy that was RELEASED by his former team. RELEASED! What was Davis thinking on this pick?
They paid him $12M last yr and owe him another $9M this year. Unbelievable. Really! And if they cut him he ADDS another $5M against the cap!
What was Davis thinking?
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Doesn’t seem likely that if we sign a couple Olineman during FA period that we’ll go OL in round #1. Does Cincy take Crabtree at #6? If so do we go Rey?
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
The Bills have a need for a Center and they let this guy go. Might be the equivalent of Jake Grove for the Raiders.
——————————————————
We wanted Grove back, just not at that ridiculous price. Maybe it’s the same with Fowler in Buffalo in that he wants more than he’s worth. And I’m sure the Grove signing makes him want even more from Buffalo, I’m sure.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Rockstar,
Where do you get your o-linemen stats regarding sacks allowed?
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Assuming we do sign this Willis and Fowler, that’s two more positions scratched off for high draft picks.
Sorry guys, but I smell WR at #7.
***
I agree. not to mention Pears for depth and competition. I knew offense would be priority this offseason. Davis wants a playmaker. Crabtree will be that guy
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Jhill,
I don’t know that we can “scratch-off” two positions with these potential middle-of-the road FA signings. It could also be argued that the Raiders complete disregard of the WR position during free-agency indicates that they are satisfied with who they have currently (of course this is all subject to change)
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Dakota:
http://sports.cbs5.com/fb/teams.asp
go to the team, click on the player
of course all the free agents are listed under “transactions”
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
SCREW REY!!!!!! HE CAN’T RUN!!!!
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Thanks for the link Rockstar.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Jhill-for once we don’t see eye to eye.while i agree it looks likely a WR(Crabtree) could be the top pick,signing theses OL does not mean we won’t take an OL,maybe even at #7.what it shows is our brass isn’t satisfied with what we have.and don’t forget DE.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Besides Center, who is gonna be our RG?
Anyone know the dilly with Carlisle. He re-sign yet?
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
hwnrdr Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:24 pm
I hope he restructures than gets cut!!!
hell yeah baby!!!
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Dakota Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:35 am
Raiders | Willis visiting
Tue, 03 Mar 2009 09:15:34 -0800
Adam Schefter, of NFL.com, reports free-agent OT Ray Willis (Seahawks) is visiting the Oakland Raiders Tuesday, March 3.
___________________________
okay, this may change things for the draft…
^^^^^
Lets hope they sign the guy and bring him onboard to compete.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:36 pm
come on Dakota.we all know you hate anything Pac-10.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:36 pm
BBB,
Willis and Fowler were starters last year. Do you really think they would sign FA contracts with us to be backups? Highly unlikely.
And yeah, you could argue that about the WR position. Just like you could that they like a WR in the draft and feel very strongly that he will be there at 7.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
just because a guy comes for a visit doesn’t mean he will be offered or sign a contract.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Lefty12,
I don’t hate the Pac-10…I just hate the thought of picking LBs that can’t cover in the NFL at #7.
Give me Rey’s run-stopping coupled with Morrison’s pass coverage skills and now we are talking!
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:42 pm
JHill,
Willis and Fowler are being let go by their current teams, because they have chosen to go in another direction. I am thinking Willis and Fowler will work for the highest bidder at this point.
Assuming that our O-line problems will be solved with these two, is the same kind of logic that created our starting line of Harris, Gallery, Grove, Carlisle and Greene. How many of those guys will be around in 09?
We need TALENT on the line, not mid-level free agents
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:42 pm
NEW POST LADIES!
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:43 pm
I say we draft the fastest guy out there. If this fellow Rey can’t run the 40 in 4 seconds flat then he can’t play for the greatness of the raidehs…
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
sorry,Dakota,but i have never seen you make a positive comment about any player from the Pac-10.but i admit i don’t read EVERY post on here.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
COACHING COUNTS!
At face value Willis and Pears sound a lot like a couple guys named Gallery and Henderson. Lots of raw talent but need technique.
Cable and Co. are just the coaches to get the most out of them.
DON’T FORGET:
A Tackle who has trouble in space or with speed rushers could end up a fine Guard. Pears the next Gallery that Cable moves inside?
DRAFT MACK?
Centers rarely go in the first round. Mack could be there in the 2nd. Unless we get Fowler.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
The Denver Broncos and the Cleveland Browns come to an agreement for embattled QB Jay Cutler. In return the Broncos get QB Brady Quinn, DT Shaun Rogers and either a 3rd or 4th round draft pick. You heard it here first!
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
MACK in the 2nd! Lets keep a HOMEBOY in town AL!
Besides is coach will be coaching him again!
Raji rnd1, Mack rnd2, Hayward-Bey rnd 3
What do you all think?
March 3rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
If Hayward-Bey isnt there, you gotta love Brian Robiski, I think that kid is a real sleeper! He can run a route which our WR’s haven’t been able to do since???? TBrown?
March 3rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
the C/G is headed home,empty-handed. News conf.at 4:00
March 3rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Live in Cleveland. Charlie Frye sucks big time. No better than a scout qb. Rather have Tui.
March 3rd, 2009 at 1:03 pm
With the Raiders looking at Offensive lineman and signing Ricky Brown to $1.5 Mil. You would think their draft need would come down to a WR or DL. That leaves Crabtree and Maclin at WR or Orakpo and Raji as possibilities for the #7 pick with guys like Mack and Unger going in the 2nd and other depth from that point on.
March 3rd, 2009 at 1:09 pm
I agree….Robiskie definitely would be another solid 2nd rounder along with Britt or Nicks. His stock has increased.
March 3rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
4evaRaider Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
the C/G is headed home,empty-handed. News conf.at 4:00
Praying for the souls of the lost 3 men and their families…..sad….
March 3rd, 2009 at 1:58 pm
I like the idea of mid-level signings on the O-Line. When the Raiders drafted Gallery and Grove they were both considered the top prospects at their position and it hasn’t played out that way. The team has gotten tons of grief over Gallery but dont forget at the time EVERYONE and I mean every scout, GM and Kipper type had him as a great pick at #2, the best lineman in the draft, a future All Pro. The draft and high priced free agency is a crap shoot. The solid teams are the ones that get the most out of mid round draft pics and mid level free agents. The Raiders have to get back to being able to coach up players and to getting the most out of the talent available. I’m all for experienced lineman with potential for improvement that can be obtained at a reasoable price.
March 3rd, 2009 at 2:05 pm
[...] Oakland Raiders have been busy Tuesday, trying to upgrade their offensive line after losing center Jake Grove to [...]
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