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Why CIF’s Grant over DLS reasoning makes no sense

The reasoning that Grant’s two wins over state champions from the highest level of football from Idaho and Utah are absolutely ridiculous. It doesn’t give value to the quality of football being played here in California. So I started thinking, how many of the teams DLS played could win a state title at THE HIGHEST LEVEL of football in states not named California. Of course, I had to rely on the CalPreps project a matchup tool to make this work. The results are probably shocking to the CIF, but to those of us who actually follow high school football, well, not so much.

In the order of the DLS schedule:

Serra-San Mateo vs Capital (Montana Class 2A champs): Serra 34, Bismark 24

Loyola-Los Angeles vs Junction City (Kansas 6A champs): Loyola 24, Junction City 21

Don Bosco: DLS lost on a last second field goal to NJ state champs.

Granada-Livermore vs Nashua South (New Hampshire Div 1 champs): Granada 28, Nashua South 22

Livermore: no.

Foothill-Pleasanton vs Hartford (Vermont Division I champs): Foothill 27, Hartford 21

Amador Valley-Pleasanton vs Lincoln (South Dakota 2A champs): Amador Valley 28, Lincoln 24

Monte Vista-Danville vs Hazelwood Central (Missouri 6A champs): Monte Vista 35, Hazelwood Central 21

San Ramon Valley-Danville vs Bismark (North Dakota 3A champs): San Ramon Valley 34, Bismark 24

California-San Ramon vs Service (Alaska Large school champs): Cal 22, Service 19

Deer Valley-Antioch vs Milford (Delaware Divsion II champs): Deer Valley 22, Milford 12

Foothill-Pleasanton — Toss in another win against the Vermont state champs

Pittsburg vs Orchard Park (New York Class AA state champs): Pittsburg 26, Orchard Park 20

LINK to CalPreps project a matchup tool

List of 2008 state champions

If that doesn’t show how ridiculous CIF’s reasoning that Grant beat two state champs from the largest classification, so it deserves to go to the Open, I don’t know what does.
Using my logic, DLS has 11 wins against teams good enough to win a state title at the biggest classifications outside of California. But guess what? We’re IN California, where some of the best HS football is played. Highland (Idaho), one of the teams Grant beat, would come in sixth place in the EBAL.

Here is my theory as why DLS got passed over. If DLS would have beaten Poly in the state Open game, it would have been the No. 1 team in the state. It would have also had a loss to the New Jersey state champs, so then it would look like New Jersey has an edge over California at the top. Now, regardless of who wins, California will have an undefeated state champion.

One way to solve this. REAL PLAYOFFS, like every other state does.

Kyle Bonagura

Kyle Bonagura is a Pleasanton-based prep sports writer for the Bay Area Newsgroup-East Bay.

  • HAAL Fan

    Well put Kyle. Amen brother.

  • Greg

    Definitely some state playoff system. Take league winners plus a few wildcards to make a sixteen team field per division. Then you do not have top seeds getting byes and fifth place finishers in a division getting blown out. The NCS Div I playoffs had teams that should not have been there. Several of the teams in the playoffs had five hundred records.

  • Desmond Camper#72

    this is weird

    Cleveland St.Ignatius(OHIO D1 STATE CHAMPS) 27
    DLS 24

    Cleveland St Ignatius 38
    Grant-Sac 19

  • Kyle Bonagura

    No one is saying Ohio doesn’t have great football Desmond — it obviously does.

    But just because a team is a state champ doesn’t automatically make it better than every team here. Which is the issue with the Highland Idaho team being lumped in with teams like St. Ignatius just because it was a state champ.

    That also predicts DLS would give St. Ignatius a much better game than Grant…

  • EBAL Fan

    There’s a lot of people think Grant got screwed over two years ago when De La Salle went to state and Grant didn’t.

    You win some and you lose some. It’s an imperfect system and it’s not going to change. They are not going to have a state playoff — it’s not fiscally wise in this day and age.

    All the logical arguments won’t make CIF look at any thing differently. It’s the same thing which has driven me crazy for years. I look at the decisions either CIF or NCS makes and wonder, can it really be this difficult. I always think I must be missing something because it can’t be as difficult as it seems.

    But here’s the kicker and maybe explains a lot. A great many people in either section organizations or at CIF or former educators — enough said.

  • Spartan94518

    Been doing a little research of my own did you know that DLS beat 7 teams ranked in the top 101 in California(Serra#20,Loyola#56,Foothill twice #37,Monte Vista#41,San Ramon Valley#42, Cal #51,Deer Valley #101,Pittsburg#15). Grant beat 1 Granite Bay #48 by 3 points.Did you know DLS played 3 teams with a losing record combined 8-22, but played 8 teams not counting Foothill twice with winning records combined of 77-21. What did Grant do you ask??? played 8 teams with record of 29-54-1. This means you beat 3 teams not counting weak Burbank which is ranked #128 in the state with a winning record.Alta(Utah) ranked #55 nationally & Highland(Idaho) #404 nationally and Granite Bay by 23 points combined? It is supposed to be the 2 best teams in the state in the Open division DLS #10 in the nation and #2 in State versus Poly #4 in nation and #1 in State not Grant #48 in nation and #8 in State. But hey we will see how good you really are won’t we………

  • junior

    Kyle, interesting research and theory- you might be on to something.

  • John

    Like I said in another blog. The committee picked the way they did to maximize attendance for the two days. If they would have picked DLS vs. LB Poly on Saturday like they should have then the Friday game would have been very low turnout. Watch it rain this weekend and the committee will get a record low turnout anyway.

  • Bay Area Watcher

    Just to play devil’s advocate:

    I used the calpreps project a matchup tool to see how DLS’ opponents would fare against the Utah state champ. Utah would win against everyone but Bosco. That includes MV, SRV, Pitt, Serra, Loyola, etc. So yeah, beating the Utah state champ isn’t the same as beating the state champ from Texas, but they’re clearly no slouch (at least according to this tool). Can’t say the same about the Idaho champ, though.

    Grant also DID NOT want to be in the crappy league they are in. A lot of people who were campaigning for Encinal to get a state bowl berth pointed this out, so I’m just saying…

    I had not heard about the failed Grant-DLS game from a couple years back until it was mentioned on here. It would have been a great home and home series, but I can’t believe DLS is greedy enough to want half the gate from the game played in Sac, along with the full gate from Concord. Must be the socialist in me…

    Also, just curious, how does that calpreps matchup tool work? Is there really enough competition between teams from different states (except at the very highest level) to make this at all accurate?

  • Kyle Bonagura

    Watcher- The Utah school is a legit team, no denying that. Its only loss in the past two years was to Grant. I also believe that win is better than any of the wins DLS has. But the way CIF made it sound, they put the Idaho team on an equal footing with Alta (Utah) and Bosco (NJ) when that shouldn’t be happening.

    I only made this post to show how the “2 state champion victories” is argument is so flawed. It’s one thing if you beat the Florida champs, Ohio champs, Pennsylvania champs, Texas etc… but Idaho? Come on.

    It’s an insult in-state teams if you ask me and almost encourages California’s top teams to go play teams from Wyoming, the Dakotas etc just to beat a state champ. That shouldn’t need to happen, but that the precident CIF has now set.

    I also realize Grant did not want to be in that league, I’m not blaming Grant for any of this. Grant is a great team and I hope it has a good showing. Grant didn’t want to be in the Metro league and it didn’t want to be D2 (wanted D1).

    Also, full disclosure, the gate deal is something I’ve heard numerous times and since we’re on a blog I brought it up. I don’t know the complete truth to that, but people I trust have told me that was the case.

    CalPreps has a very good accuracy rating in its projections somewhere around 75 %. (I wouldn’t use it unless it was a proven prodcut)… so figure 3 or 4 of those games go the other way and DLS still has 7 or 8 wins against teams who could win a state title. The point is the same.

  • Bay Area Watcher

    Thanks for the response, Kyle. I’m not a Grant fanboy or a DLS hater, but I don’t think it’s a crime that Grant was picked for Open. Your points about how the CIF put all state champs on the same level is an important one, though. Bad precedent to set. I think the SJS is getting realigned next year, so hopefully that will help the Pacers out a little with a more competitive league. Anyways, I agree with everyone who says the CIF set the games up this way to draw the most possible fans.

    As for the Idaho state champ, I quit plugging in teams when it said MV and SRV would all beat that team.

  • junior

    nowhere, anywhere, is there a legitimate on the record statement of DLS asking for a split gate with Grant- i have been searching for awhile and it can’t be found.

    Kyle- i’m guessing you easily could pick up the phone to Eidson/Lopoz and put this rumor to rest or prove it.

  • http://yahoo.com Porque

    Kyle, your reasoning is solid as I did a similar test today to find out what’s with the CIF SOS that gave Grant the nod in the open championship. When a Pocatella, ID #1 state team is ranked #404 in Maxpreps (a very respectable analysis tool), you have to wonder what a win against them means. I personally think Pitt could whip Grant in a head to head and look what happened to a very physical team like them last Friday night. I has to be what you said, a purely money oriented decision. Stupid and sorry, I say, especially when they leave out a team which would have beat Grant soundly as well, DLS. Grant’s league doesn’t even compare to EBAL in SOS or talent. Also, the only real test for Grant (Granite Bay) was won on a very questionable call. I wish Grant well, but expect they will be trampled by LBP.

  • Spartan94518

    Grant has never seen a team with the power, speed, and size of a Poly but they will Saturday. They(Grant) think they are fast there mistakes, weak schedule, and lack of discipline will be exposed Poly played 8 teams ranked in the top 40 in the state this year. Poly trash talks during warm-ups and that will already play to Polys’ advantage even before kickoff as I said before we will see it all on Saturday night. After this weekend DLS will still be the only team from NorCal to win at the State Bowl 1-5 last 2 years, DLS will win again and everyone else will lose again sorry to say.But then again DLS is 154-0 against teams from NorCal since 1991 and they are not the strongest from NorCal? Great job commissioners enjoy your Open mismatch-up!LOL

  • jj

    I think that a playoff system would be good, but California is already one of the last state’s to finish its high school football season. In order to institute a playoff system, either the season needs start earlier, or the end earlier. This means that some of the good preseason matches will have to be eliminated or shorten the playoffs.

  • Spartan94518

    FYI Grants wins against Burbank twice doesn’t say much considering Burbank was 9-4 and 7 of those wins against teams with a combined record of 17-53. Grants’ SOS was a 19 on MaxPreps lowest of teams in top 25 in state DLS was 38 but pick any team you want if Grant wants to prove how good they are play teams from Cali that are top 10 teams beat them and I will get off your backs.

  • XTower

    I actually saw Service of Alaska this year. It played Bishop Gorman.
    I haven’t seen Cal, but I’m guessing the Grizzlies win by more than 3 points, whatever that’s worth.

  • renegades10

    The gate rumor is not true, has never been, nor will it ever be. Has been confirmed by someone who has talked to both Eidson/Leo. Why would Grant be the only team for DLS to split the gate with. They didn’t do it to Palma, Loyola, Serra, Clovis West, Mission Viejo, etc, etc… So why would they do it now? DLS doesn’t duck people. If they did they never would have agreed to the Bellevue game knowing full well that it would be a down year with the team. Now to look at the other side of the coin. Let’s say this rumor was true. A lot of Grant people say that this would be devastating financially to the Grant program. But if DLS were to travel to Grant I can guarantee you it would be the biggest turnout ever for a Grant football game. They would probably make more money than they do when they play most league opponents. Just a thought IF the rumor were true. Regardless I just want to see this game done. Don’t care how and don’t care where it’s time to get these guys playing.

  • renegades10

    By the way I think a lot of people do underestimate Grant. I don’t think they should be in the Open game but I think that they have a shot at beating Poly. Might be wrong but Grant can play some football and Poly has not dominated teams like they used to. Poly’s offense is not very good and I believe if Tesoro had more than one guy carrying the workload for them they would have won that game. Poly’s D is the best I have seen all year. And yes Grant will not have seen a D like that but Grant’s offense is good and they have some very talented athletes on both sides of the ball. Tesoro started their first three possessions inside of Poly territory because Poly had three straight three and outs. I think that in general we should all be rooting for all NorCal teams to win regardless of our feelings about the selections. Most of SoCal thinks NorCal football is a joke outside of DLS. Time to prove them wrong.

  • EBAL Fan

    I saw some football in Idaho this year — Please, it’s well below the EBAL — well below…

  • billjohnson

    de la salle needed to play grant this year. yes de la hasnt lost in 17 years but they havent played grant. i think de la will beat grant but obviously the people who run state don’t!de la,grant,bellarmine you wanna play for state well play each other have it settled on the field! bellamine you got a problem play grant or de la!

  • LBGC

    the selectio committee dropped the ball on this one…

    it should be LB vs DLS and Grant vs Centennial. Matching up DLS and LB would’ve sold out the stadium, so I don’t think that it was a $ issue. I just think that the committee is just hung up on the fact that Grant is undefeated.

    i have been a part of alot of hs football both in socal and nocal. the socal schools play other schools in other sections all the time because they understand what a “quality win” against teams from the other sections means when it comes to post season… not that anyone in nocal isn’t willing to do the same, its just that they should begin to include Grant and othertop schools in the sac area and the schools in the Modesto area to finally get to the bottom of this whole issue… I believe the NCS is the best “all around” section up here and as “the best” i think we should go out there and show the other sections around us just that… with that said, the other leagues need to step up their game to compete with the ebal top to bottom.

  • http://contracostatimes.com CJF

    If you know anything about education, then you know how politicized it is. This was a political decision. This really puts the heat on Grant to come through. Because not only are the Pacers playing to win a state title, they’re playing to prove their section belongs with the big boys. If they lose it may be quite a while before a team from Sac/Joaquin plays for a state title.
    Its put up or shut up.

  • Mrbig

    Regarding DLS request to split the gate. This is a rumor that has a life of its own. The crazy thing is that it has neither been confirmed or denied in an interview or article. Someone get on this. With that saidm the poster who said “who cares…DLS would bring so many people Grant would still make more money splitting the gate….” That is false. Grant generally has only two home Non-League games each year. This year is was Alta (UT) and Oak Ridge. The stadium was near or at capacity for the Alta game, and at well over half full for the OR game..I’d guess 70%. So no matter how full a stadium DLS would bring, Grant would lose money if they had to split the gate. Just clarifying the situation.

  • Mrbig

    with regards to the comments that Grant defeating two State Champs is not that impressive. First, as mentioned here, Alta is legit. Highland is likely a mid level NCS team…
    However, the more difficult taks at defeating two state champs in any one year is scheduling them and hoping they win State afterwards. That in itself is the hardest part.
    Lastly..consider this. IF DLS defeats Bosco Prep…Bosco would drop in the rankings. Perhaps out of the national Top 25. If Alta defeats Grant, and ends up undefeated, they’d likely have lept up the polls, and into the National Top 25.

    BTW…DLS fans who are upset by Grant being chosen over you…why are you taking it out by talking trash about a bunch of kids at a inner city public school? Seriously, your complaint is with the CIF and the section commissioners. All Grant did was schedule as best as they could and win all their games. Even there coach admitted he was surprised they were in the Open Game. Show some class Spartan Fans…seriously.

  • renegades10

    Mr. Big

    You know what I see what you are saying about the only two non-league home games a year. I’m very used to DLS former independent status with five non-league games. They would lose money probably not that much in the end but I was getting a little tired of some people making it sound like Grant would go bankrupt if it happened. They could move it to a bigger neutral site. That might work. But again with regards to the gate-splitting rumor I definitely know that was not an issue for trying to get a game this year. It just would not make sense for DLS to all of a sudden ask this when it never was in the past.

    In regards to Highland well they would be a good DII NCS team. There is a former coach from the NCS who now coaches in Idaho and has watched Highland play. He put them in a competitive game with Las Lomas who is a Division II team that is a good team but not great and wouldn’t win very much if put in a league with DI teams.

    Anyways as a DLS alum I am sorry if you feel that some of the fans are attacking Grant. Just a lot of pride there and I think a lot of shock as to what just happened. It is too bad these teams as of yet have not played. Hopefully there will be some games in the future. I do agree that Grant has now been given the respect they have asked for and now its time to back it up. I will be rooting for them and hopefully these two teams will be meeting soon.

  • http://www.ibabuzz.com/prepcorner/2008/12/15/east-bay-prep-football-super-poll/ Monarch76

    WOW! The CIF got it right based on Centennial’s victory. I saw both Centennial and Long Beach Poly play this season and they are monster programs. They are Pitt with DLS’ discipline. DLS would not go undefeated if they were located in So. Cal.. They would do well but they would not dominate like they do in the East Bay. Reason? So. Cal. has many more great private school programs (Mater Dei, Servite, Orange Lutheran, Loyola, Bosco, Oaks Christian, and more). The private schools in No. Cal. have not been able to keep up in football (moreau, BOD, Salesian). The only private schools that play tough are out of the East Bay (Newman, Bellarmine, Valley Christian, Serra). DLS is in a well-to-do area surrounded by significant talent. They draw from everywhere and encourage public school kids to apply. They are at the center of a perfect high school football storm. If the private schools in the area were better, they would water down the athletes drawn to DLS and the Spartan program would come back down to East Bay earth. That would also give the public schools more of an opportunity to catch up. How do we fix it? Place DLS in the south bay private school league. I know the travel is drastic, but drastic situations call for drastic changes. If you are one of those who think it’s not fair to DLS kids . . . think again. No one has to attend DLS . . . they apply. Thus, every kid who enters the program knows they are signing up for significant sports travel. That would keep some more talent in the public schools. BTW, DLS does not recruit . . . the alumni does but the school and the football program does not.

  • Frank

    How do you feel now that GRANT PACERS WON the championship…No more recent comments. Good Game Poly!!! Sorry DLS… GO PACERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Andre

    so i see now that DLS lost and grant won who wants to still talk about the SJS. noone looks at are section. I didnt go to grant but do Live 15 mins from grant and ive been saying since i graduated class of 07. Grant could have beat DLS than but DLS coaches kept saying no. Well i guess not if DLS has somthing to prove they can drive down to the City and see wats up.

  • Nicholas Hicks

    Man… Don’t you all feel silly now!!! All of that hating you were doing as far as what De la salle was and Grant wasn’t and look at the two outcomes. Grant Captured the national attention that they have deserved for yeaRS. Face it fellas Sacramento is #1!