- East Bay Prep Corner
NCS realignment: CV back to Bay Shore?
By Jimmy Durkin
Monday, February 28th, 2011 at 6:32 pm in Uncategorized.
Here’s my story Ben Enos and I just finished writing for tomorrow’s paper about today’s NCS realignment meeting. Scroll to the bottom for analysis.
Castro Valley High may remain in the North Coast Section’s Bay Shore Conference after all, perhaps as part of a new configuration of 12-team super leagues.
The NCS Alignment and Classification committee met Monday at Redwood High in Larkspur and forwarded a recommendation that would align the Bay Shore Conference into one eight-team league and two 12-team leagues, one of which would include Castro Valley. That recommendation will be voted on at the NCS Board of Managers meeting on April 18, along with a proposal the Bay Shore Conference originally drafted in October.
Castro Valley applied for and was granted a switch from the Bay Shore to the Valley Conference a year ago in an effort to better satisfy its competitive needs. But the new Bay Shore Conference proposal sparked the interest of Castro Valley enough that it would like to remain the in Bay Shore Conference.
“What they’re discussing now is exactly what we wanted,” Castro Valley athletic director Andy Popper said of a proposal generated from a recent meeting of Bay Shore Conference schools and presented Monday by NCS commissioner Gil Lemmon and HAAL commissioner Dave Kiesel.
Popper said Castro Valley made calls over a year ago to gauge interest in a setup involving large leagues divided into divisions and there was no support for such a configuration, which led to the school’s intended move to the Valley Conference. He said they would’ve never made the move to the Valley if such a proposal was on the table.
The proposal would keep the current Mission Valley Athletic League in tact and add Moreau Catholic. The two new unnamed 12-team leagues would be divided into six-team divisions based on competitive equity. Each division would likley receive an automatic berth to NCS playoffs and its possible the schools in each division could vary by sport.
One league would consist of Alameda, Arroyo, Berkeley, Bishop O’Dowd, Castro Valley, Encinal, Hayward, Mt. Eden, Piedmont, San Leandro, San Lorenzo and Tennyson.
The other would include Albany, De Anza, El Cerrito, Hercules, John Swett, Kennedy-Richmond, Pinole Valley, Richmond, St. Joseph Notre Dame, St. Mary’s, St. Patrick-St. Vincent and Salesian.
The proposal requires Castro Valley to be re-admitted to the Bay Shore Conference, something that requires a vote of both the Bay Shore and Valley Conferences. Lemmon said he’s going to begin the process of organizing that vote.
The alignment committee also forwarded a proposal for the Valley Conference that would maintain status quo. That proposal is based on Castro Valley returning to the Bay Shore Conference.
That will go forward to the NCS Board of Managers along with the Valley Conference’s original proposal from October that placed Castro Valley in the East Bay Athletic League.
Much of Monday’s meeting with the Valley Conference centered on Livermore. At previous realignment meetings, Livermore principal Darrell Avilla spoke in support of finding a better competitive match for the Cowboys than the EBAL.
On Monday, athletic director Rex Anderson said Livermore would support the creation of a 12-team EBAL that would be split into divisions based on competitive equity. If that wasn’t an option, Anderson said the Cowboys would rather stay with the status quo than join the Diablo Foothill Athletic League, citing a potential increase in travel time and loss of class time.
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Analysis:
Jimmy: I think overall the proposal going forward for the Bay Shore Conference is a good one. Having two 12-team leagues will provide a lot of flexibility to allow strong programs to compete in a league that is exciting and challenging and weaker programs will be able to avoid constant beatings from far superior teams.
Looking at the league that involves essentially the HAAL teams adding Berkeley, Alameda, Encinal and Piedmont, you’re talking potentially about a basketball league with Berkeley, O’Dowd and Castro Valley? How good is that! And a football league with Berkeley, Encinal, O’Dowd and San Leandro? Yes please. I think this type of league provides strong benefits for those types of programs, but it also allows the Tennysons and San Lorenzos of the world to participate in leagues that give them a shot to compete.
Turning to the other league, I think you’ll end up essentially with most of the private schools playing together, with a couple of the strong public schools added in. Picture basketball that’s already strong with Salesian, St. Joe’s, St. Mary’s and St. Pat’s adding a team like El Cerrito. Then it also would likely allow a boys soccer team such as Richmond the chance to be in a league with the likes of Albany and St. Mary’s. That’s a good thing.
So overall, I very much like that idea. The MVAL basically stays the same, adding back Moreau Catholic. Moreau wants to be in the MVAL and the MVAL seems receptive to adding them back in. So that’s a win-win.
The Valley Conference remains status quo in this proposal from today. Very few people have a problem with that. Livermore would like a league it has a better chance in which to compete, but it admitted today that it prefers the status quo to joining the DFAL, citing travel time.
The one hurdle involves getting Castro Valley re-admitted to the Bay Shore Conference. Gil Lemmon is working on setting up that vote. But even without the vote, he told me the bylaws appears to have wording that would allow the NCS Board of Managers to move CV to the Bay Shore Conference, so I’d say it’s a strong possibility that happens. Stay tuned. The official word comes April 18.
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Ben: Having sat in the input meeting last month, then today’s appeals hearing, I really want to say that I think the committee did a very good job of listening, being receptive to outside ideas and making what it felt was the best decision for the students of the Bay Shore and Valley Conferences. I thought Commissioner Lemmon did a good job of disseminating information and making his cases and did a good job of facilitating the meetings.
When we first heard the mention of these “mini-conferences” at the input hearings, I thought this really sounded crazy. I mean, 12-team conferences broken into six-team divisions? But, the more people started thinking about it, the idea really took hold. Credit the committee for keeping an open mind to it, and when somewhere around 20 schools met last week at Bishop O’Dowd to discuss the idea, they came back with a focused proposal today and that made a big difference.
I agree with Jimmy 100 percent. We could get some seriously good leagues out of this deal. We could also see some teams become more competitive. I think the biggest benefit this idea has is at the junior varsity and frosh/soph levels. If you have eight schools with a JV baseball program in your mini-conference, well there’s your league. It cuts down on travel costs and makes scheduling more creative and easier. Reducing travel costs is a big deal now that budget cuts are threatening athletic programs across the state. I think they took a step toward that today.
As the Valley Conference is concerned, I think once Livermore agreed today that moving to the DFAL would create more out-of-class time than it was comfortable with, things opened up to remain the same. I remember the Valley Conference meeting in October when the schools voted 21-9 to simply move Castro Valley into the EBAL. That was a pretty clear sign that 21 schools wanted to stay in the same leagues, and the EBAL voted against it because it created an unwieldy, big league. Now, everyone stays the same and I think you maintain some important rivalries in the process.
All in all, I think it’s a good deal.
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Just to recap, here is the new Bay Shore Conference if today’s proposal passes.
MVAL: American, Irvington, James Logan, Kennedy-Fremont, Mission San Jose, Moreau Catholic, Newark Memorial, Washington
New League 1: Alameda, Arroyo, Berkeley, Bishop O’Dowd, Castro Valley, Encinal, Hayward, Mt. Eden, Piedmont, San Leandro, San Lorenzo, Tennyson
New League 2: Albany, De Anza, El Cerrito, Hercules, John Swett, Kennedy-Richmond, Pinole Valley, Richmond, St. Joseph Notre Dame, St. Mary’s, St. Patrick-St. Vincent, Salesian
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February 28th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
So BSAL, MVAL, ACCAL and HAAL are the main ones effective/consolidating? Also, what happens to the BFL now down to five pretty middling teams?
February 28th, 2011 at 7:46 pm
add livermore to mval and take james logan and add them to cv berkely odowd and crew would rival the valley
February 28th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
This makes a whole lot more sense than adding CV to the EBAL. I like the idea of the teams being divided up based on competitive equity for different sports. They could really do that one step better by combining the Bay Shore and Valley into one and have some super football and basketball leagues, along with some dormat leagues which would teams to be competitive for those particular sports. Good, creative thinking.
February 28th, 2011 at 8:13 pm
The BFL is a supplemental league, so this realignment doesn’t necessarily determine what happens with supplemental leagues. Salesian could still play football in the BFL. AD and football coach Chad Nightingale wasn’t at the meeting, so I wasn’t able to ask him what Salesian’s plans are. I know Moreau said previously it would be willing to drop it’s supplemental BSAL status and play football in the MVAL. Salesian also said previously it would be open to dropping its supplemental league status depending on what league it was in. That’ll will be a question to answer later. Leagues must have at least six teams, so the BFL would need to pick up another team if Salesian left.
February 28th, 2011 at 10:05 pm
Good to see the NCS is doing something! The next step is moving Livermore to an easier league and possibly Granada too due to a shortage of talent in Livermore. And of course you’ve heard about the green and silver. But for now, if this passes, I’m somewhat satisfied.
March 1st, 2011 at 1:32 am
That looks good and the Dons will come to play but what about the small schools like Encinal, Hayward, Mt. Eden, Piedmont, San Lorenzo, Tennyson, and Arroyo where they can’t compete financially with the bigger schools and the lack of numbers. And recruiting all the bigger schools have Pop Warner teams in there backyard, and a private school that can pay for kids’ education. Mt. Eden vs. Berkeley in any sport come on!!!
Don Pride !!
March 1st, 2011 at 1:50 am
Yay this is awesome. I love what Jimmy says in support and Ben’s JV take because those are both win-wins.
Great reporting we all thank you two for the awesome job filling us in on what’s being considered. I sure hope this turns out as good as it sounds!! Go Bay Shore this is a boon for the entire East Bay!! I’m just so happy they solved the Geography problem more importantly the Competitve Equity solution!!
I’d say keep it going in the next 5 years you’ll see NCS championships at Oakland Coliseum 12-0 Berkeley Div 1 , Div 3 Encinal, Div 2 Hayward, etc San Leandro teams vs DLS and a lot more balanced 24-21 scores!!! annd my word the Basketball in those leagues will be so outrageous you will sell out every league game
!!!
March 1st, 2011 at 4:52 am
Calling out Mr. Ben Enos, when do we get some Baseball coverage? I know it’s early but there has been some games played already and I would like to see some predictions and your input. Hopefully you can keep up with Matt Smith’s Excellent Soccer coverage.
March 1st, 2011 at 5:21 am
JB,
That’s the beauty of this. WIth the divisions, you’re talking about all those smaller schools who struggle to compete playing in the same division with each other, while the larger and more competitive schools would be in the same division. Football-wise, I’d take a gander that a six team division would consist of O’Dowd, Berkeley, Encinal, San Leandro, Hayward and probably Castro Valley just because of its size, but maybe Alameda or Arroyo. Then the other division is Mt. Eden, Tennyson, Piedmont, San Lorenzo, etc. That would be a league in which those teams would find equal competition. I doubt you’d see many sports where Mt. Eden and Berkeley are in the same division.
March 1st, 2011 at 7:55 am
12 team EBAL (2 divisions):
680 League – Foothill, Amador Valley, California, San Ramon Valley, Monte Vista, De La Salle.
580 League – Livermore, Granada, Dougherty Valley, Dublin, Valley Christian, Castro Valley
March 1st, 2011 at 9:45 am
Matt R,
That’s a good suggestion. Is that a go or pie in the sky?
SnG
March 1st, 2011 at 9:47 am
Wow!!! The first league sounds awesome!!! Benefits strength in schedule for all football teams in that league and will be very exciting to watch!!! Not to mention that would also be a very competitive baseball league! Alameda, Berkeley, Encinal, San Leandro, CV, and BOD. Seems like a very long and interesting baseball season to me!
March 1st, 2011 at 10:06 am
I think that has been proposed, hopefully will be considered. It allows DLS to keep playing the best teams from the current EBAL and avoids the slaughter games with Livermore, Granada, and Castro Valley. It also gets Livermore out of the current EBAL and puts them on a level playing field. It also gets Dublin and DV out of having to go up 680 and 24 for all their away games. Seems logical to me. We’ll see.
March 1st, 2011 at 10:19 am
Don’t know if this idea will fly in Richmond. Salesian, SPSV, John Swett would not want to play Pinole Valley. They tried this before a few years ago & these 3 schools specifically fought it tooth & nail. Salesian if they plan on going to the BFL wouldn’t really care. SPSV I don’t think would go along with it & would always be in the Bigger league.
March 1st, 2011 at 10:24 am
I think that Matt’s idea is great. You could play everyone in your division and than play 2 games in the other division to make up your 7 league games. I think it would make the competitve balance in the EBAL better for all. Since it makes since, you know it won’t happen.
March 1st, 2011 at 10:54 am
Jimmy, why not split up the Leagues by straight enrollmonet? Encinal is going against some big dog school & looks like some fun games EHS, B-High, BOD, SL, Hayward, CV. EHS could do well lose one league game be an at large bid 1 home games in the play-offs may have to go to DFAL winner or MC if they beat one school Novato or even worse Eureka.
Alameda or Arroyo are getting a hell of a gift automatic birth into the play-offs & home field through-out playing in a league with Tennyson, Mt. Eden, SLZ, Piedmont.
March 1st, 2011 at 11:56 am
BY enrollment HAAL
Big league: Berkeley, SL, CV, Arroyo, Mt. Eden, Alameda.
Small League: EHS, BOD, Hayward, Tennyson, Piedmont, SLZ
Seems fair looks like BOD would play EHS for the league championship a lot 2 similar sized school in the same division. Only 5 league games could still load up your non league.
Jimmy, how would they do it competitively? Every year? Based on what rankings from the previous year?
March 1st, 2011 at 12:15 pm
JB-
How are Arroyo and ME small schools? Both 20 kids under 2000 according to calpreps. Has there been a significant drop in enrollment? Or are you guys growing and will be d1 next near?
March 1st, 2011 at 12:18 pm
I’ve been summoned! Just Sayin’, I’m keeping one eye on the baseball results as they come in. I don’t think anyone could match what big Matt has done with soccer, but I’ll be watching over the next couple weeks. I gotta clear basketball season first!
I did see that Amador Valley is nationally ranked to start the season. That’s pretty impressive. I’ll try to start a thread soon so people can sound off on early season stuff.
March 1st, 2011 at 1:35 pm
If you make these super leagues and divide them into competitive equal, do you get more than one automatic birth to the playoffs. If so that won’t work. You get all the good teams beating up on each other knocking each other out of the playoffs while the bad teams battle for their own automatic birth. This would mean that a crappy team would get in because of their winning an inferior division while a better team who would beat them easily in a head to head match up would be left out of the playoffs. Maybe I’m not understanding how this would work but I don’t like it
March 1st, 2011 at 3:15 pm
Perkin. It does NOT fly in Richmond.
March 1st, 2011 at 3:48 pm
Thanks Ben. Props to Coach Anderson(and staff) and crosstown rival Coach Ryans(and his hard working assistant Coach Lieba)..Let’s Go Arroyo and SLZ!
March 1st, 2011 at 4:24 pm
To answer a few questions posed, Matt’s suggested EBAL is something that was discussed, but it’s not in the plans for this realignment. The only two proposals the Board of Managers will be voting on for the Valley is status quo and basically status quo with the addition of Castro Valley to the EBAL. If CV geta cleared to go back to the Bay Shore, it’s just status quo. I’d expect the Valley will study the Bay Shore over the next few years if the super leagues proposal goes through and maybe make the move in the next cycle, which would be for the start of play in 2017.
As for the question of why not do a straight enrollment break up for the divisions, I think that plan would put you right back into the problems that you currently have. It’s narrow-minded to think that enrollment is the only factor in terms of competing. A school like Encinal runs a great football program despite its size and so it can compete at a higher level. If it were to ever drop off, it could probably eventually move to the lesser division. The leagues would likely meet each year to decide what teams should move up or down in the divisions. I know that’s how some CCS super leagues do it. Often the league champion of the lesser division willing up and the last place team of the higher division will move down.
Regarding an extra NCS berth, it would likely require some tweaking of the bylaws, but likely both divisions would get an automatic berth. I agree that it seems a bit odd or unfair that essentially the seventh-best team in a league would get an auto berth. But that’s not really going to cost many superior teams a playoff spot. So long as they are .500 (and they can play a nonleague schedule to assure that), they’ll probably get in on the strength of playing in that stronger division. But yes, it does affect home field advantage. But a big factor here is giving every team the opportunity in a given season to feel like it can compete. So I believe the section and the leagues will be fine with that scenario. Competiive equity is the goal and that affects everybody. It’s not just about protecting stronger programs.
March 1st, 2011 at 5:30 pm
Good point but teams are placed in the play-offs per enrollment so A bigger D-1 or D-2 team winning a weak league will only make them look bad in the play-offs more then likely playing a 1st round opponent that maybe should be a higher seed then them. All leagues should be governed by 1 or 2 teams that make them legit which is pretty much the case now.
Also you have to take into account that these are only 6 team legues with only 5 league games. A bigger school that wasn’t competeing at the same level as other teams in its league could always schedule themselvses a cupcake non-league & make themselves 4-1 in the non-league. Vice versa a BOD placed a a smaller league that it maybe could always win could easily schedule a SL & B-high each year to load up its non-league. Better then given some weak team an opportunity to hang a league championship banner.
They have a deal like this in th MCAL where the worst team from the previous year doesn’t play the top 2 from the previous year. Never thought to be a worry but San Rafael almost went undefeated so would have been a Co-League champ with MC or even worse if San Rafael went undefeated but MC slipped on a banana peel against whoever would have made San Rafeal league champ when they didn’t play the top 2 teams from the previous year. Doesn’t seem fair.
March 1st, 2011 at 5:37 pm
It’s not perfect. Nothing ever will be. But I still like it better than what we have now. In the end, if you’re good enough to win a section title, you’ll win it.
I would like to see a set up where league champs only get that home field advantage in the first round. After that, I’d like to see it based on seeding. It would reward league champs with one home game, then after that first round the team with the better overall body of work (as determined by the seeds) get rewarded.
March 1st, 2011 at 5:44 pm
If that scenario were in place I would be all for any kind of league based on how good teams are. Look how bad SPSV got dogged in the play-offs not being a league champ this year. 4.5 hour bus ride & a loss. Or Salesian for winning the BFL. They would have gotten a home game against SPSV even though Salesian lost head to head & SPSV was a higher seed.
March 1st, 2011 at 5:50 pm
And how about O’Dowd basketball having to drive to Crescent City because it lost twice to the No. 1 seed in Division I? I think a rule change there would be a very good thing.
March 1st, 2011 at 9:49 pm
hey jimmy
what u said in comment #25 i fully agree with everything u said amen to that.
this is high school crowd noise is nothing compared to college or pro dont see so much of home game will setermine a win, if ur better and play better u will win
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:04 am
Arroyo doesn’t havr 2000 students anymore we are down to 1200 and thats over what the admin wanted.
Now SLZ and Arroyo gets hit with a blow this week by not having summer school anymore because of funding in the city of San Lorenzo. So Now it gets a little hard but we will make it !!
Want needs to happen is use the money for the new fields, towards the kids education if you ask me…
Just like in OAL biuld five fields fire 100 teachers..
Don Pride!!!
March 2nd, 2011 at 12:13 pm
JB”Don” U get good numbers over there though? 3 levels of football?
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:19 pm
JB”DON”, I think you’re a little misinformed about the total of students in Arroyo being 1200. SLZ is the one down to about 1200 and Arroyo is over 1900.
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:22 pm
For most sports, I think this will work very well. For football, it looks like it could be a big problem. Since SJND doesn’t have football, New League 2 (using Ben’s name) can’t realistically split into two divisions of 6 football teams. Throw in Salesian (who plays in the Bay Football League) and you only have ten football members. It looks like it’s going to require a few supplemental league members. I could only see this flying if they pull a couple of of MVAL schools (maybe Moreau since they haven’t even moved there yet) for football only. Now imagine the following football leagues:
MVAL Football – American, Irvington, Kennedy, Mission San Jose, Newark, Washington
Football Division 1 – Berkeley, Bishop O’Dowd, Castro Valley, Encinal, Logan, San Leandro
Football Division 2 – Alameda, Arroyo, Hayward, Mt. Eden, San Lorenzo, Tennyson
Football Division 3 – El Cerrito, Moreau, Piedmont, Pinole Valley, St. Mary’s, SPSV
Football Division 4 – Albany, De Anza, Hercules, Kennedy, Richmond, Swett
That only adds one more NCS automatic bid to the current quota. I’m not sure what schools would really hate this plan. I could see the MVAL not liking the prospects of losing the use of Logan’s stadium, but most would probably welcome the removal of the team that’s gone 29-1 in league over the last 5 years. And maybe Pinole Valley would be unhappy with the strength of Division 3, but they’d have 5 games to schedule preseason if they want to toughen up that schedule.
March 2nd, 2011 at 6:35 pm
Per the realignment agenda Arroyo had 1980 SLZ 1618 as of 8/10. That may have been a little off but off in this school year by 700 students at Arroyo & 400 & SLZ. Come on now. This is whwere my info is coming from . Where are you guys getting yours?
http://cifncs.org/agenda_&_minutes/alignment_&_classification/files/2-28-2011/AGENDA%202-28-2011.pdf
March 2nd, 2011 at 6:52 pm
Perkin, I get mine from staff. There is a lot of students at SLZ that are going to East Bay Arts. I said Arroyo at 1900 and was told by staff at SLZ(Maybe some exaggeration) that they are at about 1200.
March 2nd, 2011 at 7:15 pm
Charter schools count towards overall enrollment since they are allowed to play sports at the school in their area. Same is the case at Encinal. They don’t have more then 1000 students but have to count the 2 charters in their area if one student plays any sport at the school.
March 2nd, 2011 at 7:38 pm
hornetfan what job are u talking bout
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:18 pm
I would like to see Moreau back in the MVAL.
March 3rd, 2011 at 2:26 am
I will check the number of students this week also we only have two levels of football at arroyo…Arroyo had 30-35 players on Var last year and 25-30
on Jv and most of those players was freshman on Jv.
Don Pride !!
March 3rd, 2011 at 10:07 am
Damn only 2 levels. Thats weak. A lot of D-1 & D-2 schools in that league all should have Freshmen. Who does carry Frosh other then CV, SL, & BOD?
March 3rd, 2011 at 10:53 am
On “Hornetfan”: Gotta love a grown man who hides behind a screen name to attack another man (and the irony of the former calling the latter a “snake”). There should be a man code on here such that anyone taking jabs at a real-life human being has to provide his real name rather than a deceptive cover like “Hornetfan”.
March 3rd, 2011 at 11:59 am
Accal
Big: Berkely, Logan, SL, CV, Washington, Arroyo
Small: BOD, EHS, Hayward, Tenn, Alameda, SLz
makes the most sense
March 3rd, 2011 at 4:19 pm
If the NCS is so concerned about “competitive equity” they should give some guidance on hiring (or firing) coaches. Most unsuccessful programs have horrible head coaches, regardless of size. Sometimes weaker schools get inflated records and look good because of a cupcake schedules, weak leagues, and expanded playoff brackets. Look at your schools. Not every program is good and you know you can attribute that to the coach.
March 3rd, 2011 at 6:29 pm
This is a very odd predicament the NCS has entered.
History suggests at high school and college levels of play that “”Super Leagues”" tend to favor the larger schools disproportionately due to having more talent depth and so on.
It’s also NOT a coincidence that the horsing-around by the NCAA conference teams and all of the whacky realignments trending towards their own Super Conferences is influencing the CIF due to their own state bowl games.
I am not a fan of an extended CIF state playoff system, the season is long enough already for the players.
In terms of actual realigning of teams, I would base it either of two ways:
a. Public School Leagues & Divisions
b. Private School Leagues & Divisions
Separate state championship playoffs (Like Texas and other states), but a couple of non-league games per year would be allowable to fill out the 10-game regular season schedule.
_________________________________________________
Second Choice would be to align schools based purely on Enrollment brackets similar to now without discrepency whatsoever.
March 4th, 2011 at 12:14 am
Killer
Your so right…….
March 4th, 2011 at 10:03 am
Ramsey, remember when Brandon Collins called you out and you got scared. It was at the island bowl. Saw you tearing up a little bit Lil buddy.
March 4th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
Okay “Hornet fan.” I don’t know who that is or what you’re talking about but I’m flattered that I was important enough to you that you have a “memory” of me to this day. I guess when you’re losing all your Island Bowls those are the kinds of things you “remember”. Anyway, I don’t even go on this site, I just heard some putz was anonymously bad-mouthing my brother and had to see the pathetic display for myself.
March 4th, 2011 at 10:30 pm
Split privates and publics? Why?
Private schools won three of the top four NCS football titles. If you want some new level of “fair play” mandate that leagues split along division lines. The NCS doesn’t have a ton of private schools to start with and at least five are pretty excellent (DLS, BOD, Marin C, Cardinal Newman, Salesian). You could point to some of the D5 and 4 schools, but splitting along private/public lines leaves more small public in the line of fire.
March 4th, 2011 at 11:33 pm
Think of this: if we had private/public seperation, CV fans/players would be wondering right now if they could beat DLS…….
March 5th, 2011 at 12:16 am
It looked like CV was pretty confident they were going to win tonight.
There are already 6 divisions in basketball and 5 in football, where teams wonder if they could beat teams from other divisions. You can always play them in preseason or tourneys like Castro Valley and Salesian. You could eliminate 2 and have 2 private school championships, large and small. It would actually be pretty easy to do.
March 5th, 2011 at 12:30 am
huh?
March 5th, 2011 at 12:56 am
dont think its enough private schools in ncs to have a split, not all private school have football, i think ncs has around 11 private schools not sure that cardinal newman is a private school didnt count them, most of the private school are div 4 or 5, do u really think those small school could come close to competing with dls in football i think not. i think the new proposed leagues would b a good thing.
March 5th, 2011 at 1:09 am
They could break it down into divisions in each sport such as a gold,silver and bronze divison.
It would probably be close to this
Gold – DLS/Newark/Cal/Pit/CastroV/Odowd/SRV/MV
Silver -Fthill/Amador/Acalanes/CP/CV/MM/DV/Logan/RCH
Bronze – Liv/Granada/LL/YV/antioch/
I know I left teams out but my point is see who wants to play with the big boys like DLS or do they wish to be in silver and beat up the second tier teams.
March 5th, 2011 at 8:10 am
BHS fan nails it.
Again, if you wanted to split anything, you’d do away with leagues that feature several divisions.
ACCAL: One D1, three D2, three D3
BFL: three D4, three D5
BSAL: four D3, four D4
BVAL: all D1 (that’s impressive)
DFAL: three D2, four D3
DVAL: four D2, one D1, one D3
EBAL: eight D1!
HAAL: two D1, five D2, one D3 (champ D3 BOD)
MVAL: four D1, two D2, one D3
Almost all with some imbalance.
March 5th, 2011 at 8:23 am
good takes and as always just putting my two cents out there.
If you re-read my post #43 option 2 was to split along enrollment brackets without margin
March 5th, 2011 at 9:18 am
My opinion is there should be seperate playoffs for public and private…high school sports are supposed to be created equal, and no one can say with a straight face privates dont have many more advantages than publics plain and simple…BUT i dont see this every happening unless you combined the CCS schools with NCS for playoff purposes, now think of the competition in all sports if that happened.
so since i dont believe it will happen…i am not for super leagues…the fun part of the football season is seeing matchups you dont normally see. if everyone has an 8, 9, or even 10 game league schedule where is the fun in that…6 team division max, allows for everyone to get 5 non league games every year. now nobody can complain about scheduling abilities as everyone would have the opportunity to improve SOS w out of league games if they have a weaker league…
if we are going to do super leagues…then split into 2 divisions and play everyone in own division 1 time only, then game 10 every year would matchup like finishing opponents on other side…therefore 1 v 1, 2 v 2, and so on…this would at least allow for 4 maybe 5 non league games still, plus a true champion each year…problem w super leagues if the two best teams dont matchup with one another i a given year, then end up w two undefeated teams, how do you determine league winners?
just my thoughts…
March 5th, 2011 at 10:24 am
I am 100% for seperate leagues/divisions/sections.
Then you would have:
The Championship Sections (Privates)
and
The Second Place/Wimp/Complianer/Excuse Makers Sections (Public)
March 5th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
You really don’t believe that Private schools have a noted advantage over public schools? Come on man.
March 5th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
U think its a coincidence that Encinal has only lost to private schools over the last 3 years? Gotta be something to that. No public schools have beaten them.
March 5th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
Since Encinal has dominated its public school counterparts- what is their advantage over other public schools?
March 5th, 2011 at 12:41 pm
I don’t think there is any advantage I think they’re good. But it takes schools like Serra who recruit to beat them.
March 5th, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Is this only about football?
March 5th, 2011 at 2:13 pm
They’ve dominated there weak schedule for a few years now… maybe time to play better teams in non league play but than again the whole small roster story will come back up from there homers when they lose.
March 5th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Encinal must have an advantage of some sort- winning all those games somehow displays some sort of unfairness…. wonder what it is.
March 5th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
First off, didn’t NCS eliminate the old Catholic League? I seem to recall they bent over backward to separate all of the Catholic schools. Seems like a properly motivated lawyer could argue either side of this in a separation of church and state type of lawsuit.
However, I guess I don’t understand the griping about private schools. Is the goal for the top public school to be able to say “our team’s the best public school with enrollment above 2,000?” Because if it means that much, Cal High would be welcome to do that. If Encinal wants a banner that says “NCS Division III Public School Champions,” then I say go for it. But if we keep creating more and more subdivisions, it just cheapens what it means for each “title.” Isn’t the goal to try to push your team (and yourself) to be the best against the best competition? It’s not like those private schools don’t have to deal with unique situations as well. Ask BYU, who just kicked a kid off their team for “breaking the honor code.”
March 5th, 2011 at 5:00 pm
ramsey losing island bowls huh? you guys aint won in 4 yrs your brothers offense is a joke bubble screens given the ball to harvell wats that? well he’s now officially the head coach but we all know he’s been running the show now he cant hide will see wat he does next year and im not talking bout the richmond de anza hercules games! ramsey is there any moyer who’s ever won a ncs playoff game?
March 5th, 2011 at 5:11 pm
To be the best must first play the best. EBAL coaches welcomed a storied program into their midst with NO regrets. Banners collect dust. Players, not posers, welcome the challenge. Cal PLAYERS satisfied being best public? I don’t think so.
March 5th, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Perkin, why do you believe the West County schools incuding Salesian would not want to league wiht PV? Bad history or just a belief they could not compete? Currently Salesian is far superior in basketball and probably even in baseball and football.
March 5th, 2011 at 6:34 pm
Well said Chs101214…you’ve had some good posts in the past about the publics and supporting “your” school, program, etc. Effort not excuses and accusations is how one handles challenges.
A league is only as good as the sum of its member schools. Want to be one of the premier leagues in the State then…”welcome the challenge”.
March 5th, 2011 at 6:35 pm
Gotta agree with you Chs…Encinal has held it’s own for the last 3-5 years, small student base and all. I’d venture to say that there are some Jets and Grizz boys that welcome and thrive playing some of those established private programs…
March 5th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Hornetfan, 617lemon,
Is Moyer officially head coach, I thought it was down to 2 at Alameda?
March 5th, 2011 at 8:29 pm
It’s really sad how some people at CAL don’t realize how much they are hurting themselves with their pathetic attempts to take down a private school with far more capability of molding their athletes into successful people and how others suffer for it. I think a way better ideal for Cal high athletics is to just work towards and accept the fact they are the best public school in NCS. Chs101214, some (not all) CAL players accepted the DLS challenge, and some have had to suffer for it. And I bet there are some EBAL coaches in regret. Heck, DLS has taken well over half of the crowns since joining the league, in league and NCS, and it looks as though that number will continue to increase due to the immense amount of inspiration being brought to the program. Maybe CAL and the rest of the EBAL will be insane enough to welcome additional DLS challenges after all, and Livermore and Granada will continue to be bottom of the barrel (not up to their standards), and CAL will continue to be miserable athletically, and the pleasanton schools will continue to fight for what is slowly becoming a lost cause. SRV is the only school that seems able to hang with DLS, but pretty soon they will probably find a way to struggle too. Oops, didn’t cover MV, well I’m not looking after them, they have lots of money and well-off kids and can defend themselves just fine. Just saying, perhaps CAL would be satisfied with winning and DLS out of the picture. From my own athletic experience, I see good in making the league structures and all that way.
As for those who oppose the idea of the new leagues, I say the system needs, let alone
deserves to undergo a lot of change because of how it presents situations like this.
March 5th, 2011 at 10:22 pm
@69- There’s plenty of history on these blogrolls regarding public vs. private, and with lots of haggling about the outcome for East Bay HS sports. Does it mean fewer EBAL football c’ships for the prior member schools since 2008? Affirmative. The comments “pathetic attempts” and “CAL will continue to be miserable athletically” would even be countered by some of sparta’s knowledgeables, even if just referencing football. Fact is Cal (’08, ’10) and MV (’09), not SRV, had memorable stabs at changing Nor Cal history. Will the stars line up some day? You’ve already noted the Castro Valley hoopsters. Also, plenty of other East Bay publics in sports other than D1 football have plenty of success against privates. I recall a certain D1 private going 3-11 in league last year against it’s public counterparts.
March 6th, 2011 at 4:48 am
The EBAL school, that has the best chance of beating DLS, is without question Cal High.
March 6th, 2011 at 4:48 am
*As far as football is concerned.
March 6th, 2011 at 9:06 am
Another radical idea would be to open up Public School enrollments so that any kid from within that County could go to any school within that county.
Public schools would be a wild ride but of course that would never happen…or could it?
March 6th, 2011 at 10:24 am
not whinning over public vs private…just stating facts..are there examples of public schools rising up absolutley, but there are very few…
it is not like seperating the two is a radical idea..many states already have this in place, we would not be the first..
i think the ebal coaches football wise openly welcome the challenge publicly…but behind closed doors i think if you held an anonymous vote more would be in favor of a league w/out DLS
finally my biggest reasoning for splitting public and private is it would allow california to move to a TRUE state championship easier…splitting up the divisions would now allow more of an opportunity to go through a playoff system all the way to the championship, because teams would be split more..
if this is done i dont think public schools would need more than 3 divisions..under 1000, under 2200, over 2200…private would probably only need 2…a small and a large…
would you not be in favor of a TRUE california State championship, if only by splitting public and private…
there is a distinct advantage of private schools and those fortunate enough to attend i applaud them…if i had a choice i would too…not knocking or bashing it, it is just a fact…from funding, to classroom/homework help, open boundries these all help make private schools bettto er from education to athletics…If they weren’t advantageous for kids why pay the money or go to them?
heck keep the leagues as is, so public schools still have an opportunity to say they are better by winning EBAL and knocking off DLS…but when playoffs starts it splits, i dont see why this is such a crazy idea…
here is a thought to debate…if public schools all had open boundries would DLS have the northern california winning streak / success they have today (and this is just one advantage a private has over public)?
March 6th, 2011 at 10:42 am
KillerD, #73……that idea could trigger a s&@t storm of debates and probably should have its own thread. It has been an off and on hot topic on one of the SoCal prep boards.If done for the right reasons….best classes and best teachers open enrollment could put pressure on underperforming schools, sub par teachers & administrators.
If Public School open enrollment was an option we both know a lot of student-athletes (emphasis on athlete) would gravitate toward those coaches and programs that are more successful.
I understand the idea of open enrollment as a means to improve the overall academic performance of this region and state’s schools. But…there is also the issue of community involvement and the big one…..local financial support, taxation, etc that is part of the formula that helps give the top schools their position.
In the words of one of the greatest California immigrants of all time… …Jed Clampett, “It ain’t gonna happen”. Can you imagine the reaction of the best suburban schools when low income students begin applying en masse for any open positions available in the suburban schools. The schools on the 24 and 680 corridors are within public transportation routes.
March 6th, 2011 at 11:07 am
What’s more of a determining factor for success… good coaching or having a large pool of athletes to choose from?
It’s always a combination of both (that’s why De La is the best) but not all schools can manage to get that perfect balance. If talent pool was the case than the OAL would dominate the State in everything. Then you have Encinal where they struggle to get a JV football team but are still one of the top programs around.
NCS, CIF, or an independent council of coaches and former coaches should offer guidance or recommendations for coaching positions. It seems like too many times coaches are selected for the wrong reasons.
March 6th, 2011 at 11:11 am
Too much emphasis on private schools and size of schools. In Texas head football coaches at public schools are hired as full time athletic directors. That’s how much they care about getting a good coach.
March 6th, 2011 at 11:12 am
Open enrollment is a difficult path to go down. Recruitment on a grand scale, youth teams picking high schools together. You’d need a far better rationale than “football teams can’t compete with DLS.”
Look at Oakland. I believe they have open enrollment and I don’t even see a model of a situation that could produce absurdly strong teams.
March 6th, 2011 at 11:20 am
The reason Texas and other states have Public School Football leagues and Private School football leagues is exactly for the reasons debated on here.
Equality does not exist betwixt the two and never will be overall.
Not complaining but stating obvious.
Perfect example is DLS:
They go back east and get Crushed by a Private school in Don Bosco, but win for 1 million straight games vs. NCS public schools in which they take talent from throughout 15 cites or more.
March 6th, 2011 at 11:29 am
Joe,
One model would be the Skyline teams during John Beam’s tenure. Those were assisted by open enrollment and they were pretty much always ranked No. 2 to De La Salle and probably would’ve had a chance to beat the Spartans if they were playing them every year.
March 6th, 2011 at 11:50 am
Dont use DLS football for ANY example- they are unique and NOBODY compares to them. Very few people on these blogs clearly understand what the formula is for the Spartan football team success, it is more constructive to keep them out of this discussion.
I am still waiting for an explanation as to how public schools DOMINATE SJS and Central Section football. Should not be much difference between populations, local governments, religious breakdown, etc. Some of you should study their success and try to apply it to your local team. Stop the “we cant compete, it is unfair” cry…it is Un American.
March 6th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
It is interesting that SOCAL doesn’t have private/public issues, they don’t seem to complain.
Lots of top notch privates and publics in their area.
The complaining comes from those who can’t beat DLS. You know, the team that recruits from over 15 citites and has unfair advantages with all the Div 1 players.
LOL. It has nothing to do with a better system, coaches, dedicated players, Brotherhood, enviorement at school.
De La Salle doesn’t care which league they’re in, they just schedule and play football.
Keep whining and tell your kids DLS have an unfair advantage and they’ll never win. Funny how in the other sports when public teams beat DLS you don’t hear about the advantages, DLS recruiters must be sleeping on the job.
As for Cal high, you took your loss, move on.
March 6th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
Junior says: “don’t use DLS for ANY example”
I say that DLS is EXACTLY the reason for this ongoing debate and thread. There simply is not competitive equity in the area and something should be done about it. Cal High was robbed of an opportunity to go to state because of DLS ongoing dominance. San Leandro from 1999 to 2004 missed 5 opportunities to finish their season with a win and have an NCS crown. In both cases these were the BEST public school in the area playing by a different set of rules than DLS.
It is absolutely AMERICAN to question an institution when their is inequity and things aren’t fair. That is what our glorious history is all about.
In my personal opinion, I believe that DLS should be excluded from NCS. Allow them the opportunity to play a full schedule, even stay in the EBAL, and then they can go ahead and get the invite to the Open Championship for state. But for goodness sake, let’s allow some other schools a chance to go on and win an NCS crown.
As has been stated many times, in other states the private and public schools have different leagues and/or championships. I know this is problematic due to the overall lack of private schools in the geographic area, but I think that the above solution could go a long way to resolving this situation, while still allowing DLS to compete and win at the state level.
March 6th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
I know ya all think we’re the same person, but really, Big Dog, Big Joe, me and others all huddled up in the garage sippin’ Irish whiskey, cigars and discussing another state championship run next season.
March 6th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
KillerD, I love the idea of thinking out of the box. The only issue I can see is the taxpayer burden it could create when a school district is having to pay more $$$ to educate hundreds of kids whose families aren’t contributing a penny to contribute. To use Encinal as an example, imagine adding an enrollment of 200 kids to that school, all of whom live outside of the Alameda Unified School District (and thus don’t pay any taxes there). Who’s going to pay for the 8 new teachers that are required to teach those kids?
Back to the privates vs. publics discussion, it’s fine to point to DLS and their remarkable success in football, and I suppose Salesian in basketball, but there are PLENTY of examples of private schools that are not dominating in sports. I don’t see an inordinate number of NCS titles from St. Mary’s, Moreau, St. Elizabeth, St. Patrick/St. Vincent or Holy Names. O’Dowd has hardly dominated in football. Is the recent St. Joseph-Notre Dame success in D-V hoops galling some of you guys? Like I asked before, the only purpose gained by separating the two is for a public school to be able to say “we’re #1 now that you pulled big bad DLS out of the mix” and as Chs101214 pointed out, schools like Cal don’t really want any part of that. And it’s silly to think this would help crown a true state champion. You’d be creating MORE divisions which would necessitate MORE playoff games that the state’s unwilling to play.
March 6th, 2011 at 12:37 pm
Junior says: “don’t use DLS for ANY example”
I say that DLS is EXACTLY the reason for this ongoing debate and thread. There simply is not competitive equity in the area and something should be done about it. Cal High was robbed of an opportunity to go to state because of DLS ongoing dominance. San Leandro from 1999 to 2004 missed 5 opportunities to finish their season with a win and have an NCS crown. In both cases these were the BEST public school in the area playing by a different set of rules than DLS.
It is absolutely AMERICAN to question an institution when their is inequity and things aren’t fair. That is what our glorious history is all about.
In my personal opinion, I believe that DLS should be excluded from NCS. Allow them the opportunity to play a full schedule, even stay in the EBAL, and then they can go ahead and get the invite to the Open Championship for state. But for goodness sake, let’s allow some other schools a chance to go on and win an NCS crown.
As has been stated many times, in other states the private and public schools have different leagues and/or championships. I know this is problematic due to the overall lack of private schools in the geographic area, but I think that the above solution could go a long way to resolving this situation, while still allowing DLS to compete and win at the state level.
March 6th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
@HS Football Fan
Local taxes dont fund schools. State taxes do. Average Daily Attendence (google it) determines how much schools get per kid. California has a law stating that all students get funded equally. Miramonte and Mack get about the same amount per kid. The school and district determine how the money is going to be spent (more administrators, more teachers, more supplies, etc). Schools only get money directly from their city from parcel taxes. Peidmont pays about $3000 per residential property that goes directly to the schools. Alameda has a measure on the ballot for Tuesday that would be $200-$800 (32 cents per square foot) per residential property to help fund what the state screwed up.
Vote Yes on Measure A
March 6th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
Save Alameda Sports! Vote Yes on Measure A on Tuesday!
March 6th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
This is great lively and valuable debate and very American indeed
March 6th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
I would guess InTheKnow welcomed the ridiculous shift in American culture to make sure kids “feelings” are not hurt and that we must dumb down the top of society to elevate those lower achievers.
Reality check; in the business world- there are no excuses or “leveling the playing field” (unless laws are broken), why bring that failed logic to HS sports? There are no laws being broken.
American history is full of perserverence, no matter how long the odds seem and how difficult the path. Immigrants coming here with nothing and succeeding by sheer determination, sweat, and sacrifice. That is the American culture- not crying, complaining and making excuses. (Watch “Miracle on Ice” again)
Quit looking for a regulatory solution to your inadequacies- if DLS played with a different football, cleats, helmets, field…then you look for the CIF to regulate.
BigDog makes a powerful, accurate point- if the public school parents continue to lament the DLS “advantage”, your kids are defeated before they take the field.
Now, get your boys in the weight room and running on the track, the Spartans have been working out since the beginning of January.
March 6th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
EBFootball – true enough about salaries (and I did mention who was going to pay for the teachers), but not for the facilities. Hence the need for school districts like Alameda and San Leandro to pass much-needed measures. And you’re right about how each school district has the right to control how they spend their money. Take a gander at the beautiful new fields at Richmond and at Kennedy in districts that turned around and filed for bankruptcy. In the end, the state of California (and all of us as taxpayers) paid for those fields…
March 6th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
InTheKnow – I’ll kick in a few bucks, maybe you can buy San Leandro a banner to hang in their gym calling themselves the NCS Division I Public School champs. Would that help?
You know, the Yankees and the Red Sox have an unfair advantage because they don’t have to share the money they make from their local broadcasting rights (YES, NESN). It lets them get more talent than any of the other teams. Maybe they should be excluded from the AL.
March 6th, 2011 at 1:50 pm
HS Football Fan- I like your donation idea and I am willing to throw in the book: “When the Game Stands Tall” so that the public school districts can pass it around to their coaches to understand the winning formula.
March 6th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
The Red Sox and the Yankees are actually a good example. Yes, I wish MLB had a revenue sharing agreement like football so that all teams would be on equal footing.
March 6th, 2011 at 3:04 pm
Junior what do U really know about winning your just a dedicated fan. Come on. DLS is your Raiders or 49ers. What do you really know about DLS then I know about the Raiders? Do you coach do you know coaches? Enlighten us all.
March 6th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Revenue sharing for public schools would be ideal, and it is odd that the CIF sells hats, banner, and the like with High School logos emblazened on them and makes money, with the schools getting a tiny cut.
But to belabor the point regarding DLS vs. NCS:
If you have a school (any school) that can draw talent from anywhere in the greater bay area, they have an advantage over a public school right next door (take Ygnacio Valley high or Las Lomas nearby or Northgate nearby for example).
The plain reason for that school (that can draw talent from all over the greater bay area has an advantage over its neighbors is irrefutable and undeniable.
Now, I am in favor of private schools 100% but to say that they do not have an advantage over many poorly run and improperly structured and ill financed Public Schools…is just plain lying.
March 6th, 2011 at 3:45 pm
Got cut off sorry, the reason the school that can draw from all over the greater bay area has the advantage is BECAUSE they can do so, and the schools right next door is Not allowed to.
To say the “Playing Field” is fair betwixt the two Realms is not telling the truth
March 6th, 2011 at 3:52 pm
Perkin: I know the DLS satff and players do not spend two seconds thinking about “level playing fields” or unfairness(that started waaaaay back in 1979 BTW). I know the Spartans do not waste time complaining about how difficult it is to devote 11 months a year to being the best football team they can be. I know the Spartan players and coaches would rather focus on playing for the guy next to them than worry about whether the newspaper spells their name correctly.
I have played and coached multiple sports and that is why I KNOW that DLS’s accomplishments CANNOT be as easily explained as some posters (such as yourself) try to do. Or that the Spartans success is due to an “unfair” advantage.
Your questions clearly demonstrate your level of understanding on this topic- I am happy to enlighten you further if you like.
March 6th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
WHere & what level have U coached? What is you relationship with DLS?
March 6th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
Junior said, “I have played and coached multiple sports and that is why I KNOW that DLS’s accomplishments CANNOT be as easily explained as some posters (such as yourself) try to do. Or that the Spartans success is due to an “unfair” advantage.”
So what your saying is that if Ygnacio Valley “devoted 11 months” a year, and the DLS program was implemented there, they would be the next dynasty? Don’t you see the great big hole in that argument?
I think you misunderstand me and many others. I tip my hat to Lad and the rest of his staff. His players are some of the hardest working and most prepared players in the nation. They deserve championships. BUT, they are a team of all-stars. There is no way around that. Comparing them to the Red Sox or Yankees is not an apt comparison. Instead it is more like saying that the Red Sox and Yankees get to operate by different rules then the rest of the teams in the bigs… which they don’t, but DLS does.
A public school must abide by boundaries… their coaches make due with what they get (for the most part); De La Salle gets the pick of the litter. That is not to say they recruit, not at all. But when you are a player (or the parent of said player) and you can avoid playing at a crappy school, get a scholarship to go to a great school, and get national attention, why wouldn’t you? Public schools, by rule, are not allowed that opportunity.
Again, I’m not a DLS basher. DLS supporters get way sensitive in these blogs, and have carefully worked out arguments. I understand their points. I just think the system as it currently stands is broken. I believe in fairness, and this is not fairness.
March 6th, 2011 at 4:36 pm
Moreau gets “the pick of the litter” also…….
Dont forget, tuition is a major deterant-it has no “boundries”.
Listen, I want the same thing you want: seperate leagues, divisions and sections. I would want COMPLETE seperation tho- zero playing between the two sides-not pre season, playoffs, nothing.
Be careful what you ask for tho: if the seperation happens, the private schools will be flooded with applications by the athletes- the private school side of the equation will be viewed as the Championship side and the public as the also rans. Oh my, the bitching would be defeaning.
March 6th, 2011 at 5:02 pm
i have read the book and i am sure most people who reside in norther california have too..it is a great book..
and again i am not a dls basher..they are what they are..the model every team in american should aspire after…
…but take there coaches and coaching model move it to mission san jose, how would they do? now i understand this is an extreme example but if they are miracle workers they could do the same thing there right…or how about any school in fremont, hayward, oakland, etc…how about the underfunded ones…would they win every single game for the past decade plus in northern california…absolutely not…how about at the schools where a good portion of the players have to work to help there parents pay rent…that winning formula still winning every game?
the winning formula is a MAJOR factor with it, no doubt…but tired of hearing that it is the only reason they win.
give DLS all the credit in the world and to do what they have done will never be repeated in high school sports again…and it will continue, which is why i am saying open the boundries or seperate public and private for playoffs…you open the boundries and DLS will lose within 2 years…good chance they still win NCS and go to state, but they will lose.
March 6th, 2011 at 6:22 pm
Norcalfball, I agree totally. Good Blog.
March 6th, 2011 at 6:35 pm
Love how you give credit….BUT, claim they have an unfair advantage…make up your mind.
PS- the teachers unions will NEVER allow open boundries- NEVER. I am for this as well- but it will never happen in Cali.
March 6th, 2011 at 7:28 pm
Junior, you are always there to take the credit, but fail to see what everyone else sees. It is like the emperor’s new clothes. I’m sure Perkins and Norcalfball have made up their minds long ago.
There is no doubt DLS has a great coaching philosophy and system, and their players work as hard as any in the country. But there are plenty of public schools out there with great coaching and extremely hard working kids that will never get to the DLS level. It is like apples to oranges as they are operating with different opportunities. I’m not going to call it unfair or complain but there are obvious advantages that some DLS faithful either can’t seem to see or just refuse to admit.
I’m glad that DLS is in the EBAL and they present a challenge like no other for the kids in that league and raise the bar. Short of going to the WCAL or recreating the old CAL, this is the best fit for them.
March 6th, 2011 at 7:41 pm
Prep fan, Perkin, norcalfb, whoever:
WHY DO THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS DOMINATE SJS AND CENTRAL SECTIONS?
March 6th, 2011 at 7:54 pm
you seem to or refuse to admit that the public school excuse makers are weak.
March 6th, 2011 at 8:03 pm
I’m not making excuses and do not have knowledge on the issues in SJS or CCS. I’m just very familiar with the situation at DLS. Congratulations on all of DLS successes. I see they are the top ranked team in Volleyball in the pol that just came out, and the wrestling team did very well at state.
March 6th, 2011 at 9:10 pm
dont worry about not knowing anything about those sections. here are the facts: those sections have plenty of private schools with ALL of the same advantages as the Green Machine- and yet, the public schools dominate. same “advantages”, same rules, same everything- much different result.
since there is NO empirical evidence of an “advantage”-the public school, self pity crowd is left with spin.
March 6th, 2011 at 9:45 pm
I echo KillerD’s sentiments from posting #79. It’s one of those danged if you do, danged if you don’t type of scenarios..
March 6th, 2011 at 9:46 pm
Wow…………………..
It seems to me like this debate will eventually jump right off the webpage if certain public schools like CAL continue to push themselves to the limit and remain without any titles. Either one of two things is going to happen: DLS will win NCS every year for another decade or two, or a school like CAL will take them down, but the thing is, some people are going to fall and so I just hope to god that whichever one happens is what deserves to happen, and I’ve always believed the latter is just that thing but now I’m not so sure because it’s very well possible that something went wrong regarding something totally outside the realm of the slight possibility that EBAL coaches and players agreed to have DLS in their league that I had discussed around fifty posts earlier. That something could have traced all the way back to the setting of NCS boundaries or even controversy in the founding of the school. The more it traces back, the more heated of a debate this will look to become within the next year or so. The thing is, if DLS is indeed committing themselves to being the best football program around for eleven months a year and teams have been firing on all cylinders to take them down for a couple of decades, and bloggers have defended both sides not relentlessly but rather, more simply, repeatedly, throughout many different forums, it gets me to believe the debates will get heated, some athletes will fall, and the NCS will have shyed away from their mission statement. I feel we are very close to finding out, and I feel this will be the theme of the November showdown between CAL and DLS later this year, finding out the truth or seeing the scholastic system go under. It all figures though, our state, our economy, our political standing in the world, is in a similar situation today. This is a very interesting time for everything, we have no idea what is going to happen.
So Junior, Prep Fan, Norcalfball, InTheKnow, it not only seems impossible to tell who’s right now, it may still be years from now! From my own experiences and perceptions as an athlete, Ive believed more than not that Cal deserves to triumph over DLS soon. Recall from last year that CAL’s chance to win may have been off the onside kick recovery where the ball was given to DLS following not only the controversial rule, but also the controversial interpretation of that rule at the time. Even though I was thrilled after the touchdown was scored, when I saw the onside kick happen, my emotions condescended, I sort of knew something was off, but I felt the imperfection of the play should have gone unnoticed. This foreshadows a controversial DLS pair of wins later this year. There was also a side of me that figured that since Coach Bellici didn’t seem to argue the call or discuss it much, maybe the football players had all the wins they needed this year (ending 24-7 against SRV) to be successful due to all the adversity they faced and thus CAL will, despite all the doubt expressed in the forums (which is why I mentioned the diversity), make a statement to the world next season, doing it right this time because they can now that they have seen what they are capable of. This would show to be true what I said earlier about the outcome being very unpredictable both in reality and with respect to who deserves it, and that I believe more than not that CAL deserves it.
And let me add that I may be exaggerating (when I imply the world will be talking about the game) by as much as high school football is inferior to the NFL, and also because it is high school football and the tradition of hard work may not go as far at CAL as we thought it would. All in all however, the purpose of this post is to cut around to and provide a centralized opinion for the debaters, who agree externally, but don’t seem to internally, over whether DLS has an unfair advantage, and I think CAL is the prime example to use.
March 6th, 2011 at 9:49 pm
Junior says, “dont worry about not knowing anything about those sections. here are the facts: those sections have plenty of private schools with ALL of the same advantages as the Green Machine”
Well, see, you missed the point again. There aren’t plenty of private schools in this area. There are a few and DLS stands above the rest (due to the greatness of Lad and other of course); but that makes it the ALL-STAR school. That is the difference. If there were even one or two other private schools in the greater Concord area competing for private school athletes it might be a different story.
March 6th, 2011 at 10:05 pm
While not on the football topic for a second or two, I was pleased to see the Castro Valley boys take the D1 title for the first time vs. DLS. Way to be CV
March 6th, 2011 at 10:39 pm
I didn’t say I knew nothing about those sections, just not as much as I do about DLS. I know that St. Mary’s of Stockton is a major SJS power in just about all sports and the WCAL dominates the CCS in all sports.
As InTheKnow states, DLS is the only Catholic HS in the greater Concord area. Plus they are the largest one by far in the entire NCS in terms of the number of boys at the school (1051). Almost twice as many as Bishop O’Dowd (600) and 4x Salesian (275). Can you imagine how good the BOD football or basketball teams would be with twice as many kids as they have now, or Salesian with 4 times as many kids? Not that BOD or Salesian are strugging athletically themselves with much smaller enrollment.
Combine that with the emphasis on winning that DLS has with their coaches and their dedication and work ethic, and one can see how they might have a recipe for success. Lad is an awesome coach and walked into a perfect storm 30+ years ago and put a lot of work into a struggling football team. Had he arrived at YV, he would no doubt have been extremely successful, but no one in their right mind belives they could have duplicted the results acheived at DLS over that period.
That really has nothing to do with the SJS, CCS or even Moreau (450). It may have something to do with the fact that a lot of really good athletes from all over the place apply at DLS. Some are even turned away.
March 6th, 2011 at 10:55 pm
The effort to move CV to the EBAL was misguided in the first place. With the CV school district cutting all funding for sports last year and relying totally on pay-to-play, the additional travel expenses would have been prohibitive. In addition, CV does not carry the full range of sports intensity up and down the line as do most of the other EBAL schools. Swimming, tennis, volleyball, et cetera would have been a tough go, and football and baseball have not been stellar recently. The vaunted competitive equity argument falls a little short on a closer examination.
The HAAL has a long and established tradition. The league has been largely intact since 1960, which is a long time in these parts. Arroyo, Castro Valley, Hayward, Mt. Eden, San Lorenzo and Tennyson are all charter members of the league.
It is good to see that the thinking has shifted to retain the geographic nature of current leagues, with only a little shifting. Natural rivalries between neighboring schools fuel lots of competitiveness in spite of school size or program history.
As far as competitive equity goes, I agree with the post that asserted that a coach can make more difference than almost anything else in having a consistent sports program. However, school administrations are now more focused on maintaining academic programs more than sports, and so this discussion is not the most important item on their plate. Coaches are hard to find for all sports, and the turnover is remarkable, and often schools scramble to just fill positions rather than promote sports success. League realignment is not the answer, or maybe not the complete answer. It is just the result of using school size as a numerical means to attempt parity.
March 6th, 2011 at 11:49 pm
I don’t think the question is, “does DLS have some sort of advantage?” We know they do. They are an extremely well organized all-boys Catholic school. They have the culture and set up to succeed already in place.
The question is, how does that advantage compare to the advantages other schools holds over one another. We don’t separate the inner and outer east bay becuase the outer east bay has some obvious advantages (tend to be more affluent, hire better staffs, more organized). Look back to what Jimmy said about the OAL. One coach was organized and ran the thing. Cal High has massive advantages because of where it is and what it is. We don’t say their should be further stratification to take them out of consideration, do we?
March 7th, 2011 at 12:14 am
I didn’t say Cal High didn’t have certain advantages. Clearly they do, along with most of the other EBAL schools and some others. There are several reasons the EBAL has been so successful over the years, in addition to just plain old hard work and great coaching. There is already a stratification that puts them into D1 based on their size. But there are certain DLS supporters out there that refuse to admit that DLS has any type of advantages, much less that these advantages are even more than what the public schools in more affluent areas enjoy. You say “We know they do.”, but we does not include everyone.
March 7th, 2011 at 7:51 am
thank you prep fan, good posts…
WCAL is very competitive…think about how many private schools there are in that geographic area…NOT RECRUITING, but vying for all the top athletes in the area…talent gets spread around and every year it is anybody’s league, whether it is serra, bellarmine, used to be st francis, valley christian, etc…put a private high school of DLS numbers in San Ramon (similiar to WCAL situation) and now tell me DLS would have same domination. Now DLS wouldn’t get much of the EBAL talent. would dls still be great absolutely but you just cut down on a dozen or so players at least per year that contribute big time to there football and of course all sports alike.
March 7th, 2011 at 7:57 am
is the WCAL not a better situation for high school sports or sports at all levels? competitive equity, is that not one the NFL (the greatest running sports program in the world, despite recent issues). is that not what raised the bar in the NFL…rather than the years where the 49ers and cowboys won the super bowl every year because they had more money.
let dls play in any league i dont care…but if we move to a private vs public playoff system…we would be able to create a great playoff atmosphere where teams were on even playing fields and i believe with the split would be able to move toward true state championship playoff formats…do away with NCS/CCS/SJS/etc….
season ends you move into playoff system, split up geographically of course initially to cut down on costs before moving closer and closer to the state title (AS TEXAS DOES!!!!)..where DLS would open up against teams like the WCAL rather than american. is this not better for high school sports and fans alike?
March 7th, 2011 at 9:35 am
I hope this example puts the issue to rest regarding DLS and Private Schools, and that they DO have inherent advantages over Public Schools, and that the Playing Fields are NOT equal.
But, as stated all along I’m in favor of Private schools, to each their own, BUT California should follow the lead of Texas and Split into two separate Divisions: Public and Private each with their own Playoff system, but allowed to play some crossover non-league games vs. either Public or Private.
Example For All:
a. My competition and I are each going to start a new Business, an exciting business that many consumers will enjoy using or watching.
b. However, under current business laws and regulations, MY business Will be able to obtain the materials required to build my sellable Product from within any region of the NCS (within a 1.5 hour drive during commute time).
c. But, my competition is Not allowed (in fact it’s illegal for them) to go outside of their small geographic boundary of a(20-minute drive during commute time) in which to obtain the materials required to build Their sellable Product.
d. IF my competition tries to obtain or does illegally obtain some sellable materials for their Product from Any area outside of their small and legally required geographic region, the Lawmakers will instantly punish and/or fine my competition.
e. Any unsatisfied or curious “sellable materials” that are developed and nutured from within the Geographic boundaries of my competition are Free to forgoe their legal commitment to my competition’s business, and those unhappy or unfulfilled “sellable materials” can legally leave my competition’s stockpile and join my own stock for future consideration. Since it is legal, my business shall suffer no damages from the Business Lawmakers whatsover, even if the “sellable materials” that departed from my competition’s business never even make it to the open market for the consumers to enjoy, solely at my discretion.
Questions to then be answered:
1. How long will it take for My business to establish itself as having the Best Product available when compared to my competition? Five years, four years…?
2. Wholesalers and Vendors, understanding that My business can legally obtain their top-rated sellable materials to build my Product from within a much larger geographic area quickly recognize that they can sell me the best bunch or choice materials from their crop or mine, etc.
Is that fair when compared to my competition?
3. How long will it take for my competition’s business to struggle or go under?
4. How long will it take (if ever) for the Business Lawmakers to change the rules?
March 7th, 2011 at 10:00 am
Killer,
Your example fails to point out a few other differences. First of all, your “materials” will have to pay (or have somebody pay) > $10,000 per year per material for the right to be featured by your new business.
Second, yours is not the only new business that’s capable of operating under these rules, and yet the “public vs. private” debate is created to single out only one of those entities.
Let’s face it, this entire debate is because of the belief that it’s unfair for DLS to compete against public schools. There is no similar outcry for St. Elizabeth, Holy Names, St. Patrick/St. Vincent, Moreau, St. Mary’s, Valley Christian or St. Joseph-Notre Dame. So in order to address a perceived inequity for DLS, you want to banish all of those other schools? Sounds an awful lot like you want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Also, despite this debate, the NCS (nor the state) isn’t currently considering a private vs. public option, so we’re currently Don Quixote fighting windmills. I’d be more interested in seeing how the NCS is going to address their real problem at hand, which is that their plan for two 12-team leagues isn’t tenable since there are only 22 (or 23 if Salesian moves up) football playing members.
March 7th, 2011 at 10:20 am
I bet De La has some recruiters that aren’t officially related to the school pillaging the youth football leagues. Anyone hear stories like that? I have. And about Serra too. Maybe DLS has the best recruiters compared to the other private schools.
March 7th, 2011 at 11:05 am
“St. Elizabeth, Holy Names, St. Patrick/St. Vincent, Moreau, St. Mary’s, Valley Christian or St. Joseph-Notre Dame.”
All those schools you listed except for VC are within a tight geographical region, smaller than the area that DLS currently enjoys accepting applications from. If the Catholic HS slated for Livermore ever takes hold, eventually they might siphon some of the applicants from DLS after they establish a program.
March 7th, 2011 at 11:37 am
““St. Elizabeth, Holy Names, St. Patrick/St. Vincent, Moreau, St. Mary’s, Valley Christian or St. Joseph-Notre Dame.”
All those schools you listed except for VC are within a tight geographical region, smaller than the area that DLS currently enjoys accepting applications from. If the Catholic HS slated for Livermore ever takes hold, eventually they might siphon some of the applicants from DLS after they establish a program.”
And then at that point, will it be acceptable for private schools and public schools to compete against each other again? Like I said, this isn’t really “private vs. public,” this is “public vs. DLS,” and I don’t think their reign will last forever. You mix in the Livermore catholic school with Ladoceur’s eventual retirement and DLS will eventually come back to the pack. No dynasty lasts forever.
March 7th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
To All
If any of you have attended the EBAL football games in the past years you’ll understand. Look at both side lines and you will see several players whom have been injured during the season with some on crutches. Now look at the line currently on the field for DLS and the talent on said line. Their is no one on the EBAL that can reload like DLS from freshmen on up. If Las Vegas was providing a line on DLS for next season on going undefeated in the EBAL for football they would be N/A. Each school in the EBAL has as many as 6 great players but little depth thereafter. You hear DLS supporters pointing to college athletic scholarships from other EBAL teams, but they fail to realize how important the ability to reload is to maintaining a competitive team. We all know where the large depth of talent is located and it is in Concord. Give any of the fine coaches in the EBAL that talent and they would also succeed. I believe it is time to say many teams have diligent and hard working coaches that also includes the great coaching staff at DLS. No matter what happens going forward DLS will go undefeated in league for many years. Thank god the other high school sports take far fewer athletes and many attend public and privates schools because 40 players are not needed to succeed and the families know the crowd at the top would mean their student athlete would not participate at DLS. Yes I am talking about basketball and baseball. DLS will win some and lose some in these sports but their is no sure thing they will win the EBAL each year. Like many of the other coaches in the EBAL I am tired of debating this point and applaud DLS supporters for enjoy a winning season. This is good for DLS, the Northern California newspapers and NCS Directors whom relish the national publicity.
March 7th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
In summary:
*Only DLS football is able to turn the private “advantage” into domination (therefore, it is unfair)- due to stars aligning, voodoo, magic, etc.
*Yes EBAL teams have advantages over other schools (shhhhh)- but not as much as DLS football does
*DLS football wins have caused hurt feelings by some public school teams who “might” have won without the Spartans
*Seperate privates and publics- but let them play in non league if they want (not sure why you would want this if you feel “disadvantaged”)
*DLS coaching is good- but it cant POSSIBLY be that much of a differentiator (the poster who talks about DLS lineman is classic football ignorance!)
*The SJS and Central Section (Fresno area for the uninformed) dont have these whiners and complainers because- public schools dominate- (so it must be a level playing field-which is a MAJOR contradiction)
Same old, same old… I still hold out hope that the next generation will get it.
March 7th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
Not sure why I’m responding because Junior has made it clear he is not willing to listen or concede any valid points but here goes anyways:
*Only DLS football is able to turn the private “advantage” into domination (therefore, it is unfair)- due to stars aligning, voodoo, magic, etc.
ANSWER: DLS is the only private school in the greater Concord area… players from Sacramento to Dublin along the 680 corridor go to DLS. This is not voodoo or magic. Because they took this early advantage they have built upon it. Even with the O’Dowd’s and Moreau’s of the world, DLS is the easy choice for top athletes to go.
*Yes EBAL teams have advantages over other schools (shhhhh)- but not as much as DLS football does
ANSWER: I don’t agree that that EBAL has advantages. They have more affluent parents, yes, and that stinks for poorer schools to try and keep up, but many have including San Leandro in it’s hayday. You could argue that Berkeley and Logan (who has beat EBAL schools occasionally over the past 5 years), Pitt, and now Heritage are right there knocking on the door. DLS does have an advantage… open enrollment and scholarships.
*DLS football wins have caused hurt feelings by some public school teams who “might” have won without the Spartans
ANSWER: Agreed, but not hurt feelings as much as utter frustration. Frustration that they are playing an All-Star team who has a different set of enrollment rules.
*Seperate privates and publics- but let them play in non league if they want (not sure why you would want this if you feel “disadvantaged”)
ANSWER: I support this. Yes, if a team wants to play them they absolutely could, and they would want to play them to test how good they really are and yet still have the opportunity to win an NCS championship even if they lose to them.
*DLS coaching is good- but it cant POSSIBLY be that much of a differentiator (the poster who talks about DLS lineman is classic football ignorance!)
ANSWER: Agreed, with the concession that it could very well be that Lad is absolutely a legend and far above other coaches in the area, but as many people already stated, it’s doubtful that even he could bring a public school to the heights he brought DLS.
*The SJS and Central Section (Fresno area for the uninformed) dont have these whiners and complainers because- public schools dominate- (so it must be a level playing field-which is a MAJOR contradiction)
ANSWER: This where you aren’t listening or are missing the point. Without other private school affectively competing for candidates, DLS can dominate. Public schools in those sections win because the talent is thinned out at the private schools due the options many kids have. Again, DLS is the only private school in their area.
March 7th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
Let me add something not being talked about.
How many DLS football players are on scholarship? How many have full tuition?
With the escalating budget crisis in California more and more public schools are going to a pay to play system. Public school parents are being asked to foot the bill to the tune of between $200 to a $1000 dollars.
Now if I am a parent and I can get my kid on scholarship or partial scholarship to DLS versus paying for my kid to play at a lesser school, what choice am I going to make?
With this situation it is likely DLS will get even more dominant.
March 7th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
Junior
Sorry you feel this way but please take a look at Servite and the surrounding schools of the big 5 both private and public. They are located near each other in their league affiliation.We all know their is more available talent in So/Cal and more schools dividing said talent. The families can chose to pay tuition or attend a public school because of the much larger talent pool an even playing field is currently in place at most of the power schools.. I can see you have made up your mind and I once more applaud your loyalty. I will leave you with one thought who is going undefeated in league next year and next year and next year. Could their be just a little doubt in your stand.
March 7th, 2011 at 3:09 pm
InTheKnow – Well said!!
March 7th, 2011 at 3:26 pm
What is the population that DLS draws from compared to say Bellarmine or VC? San Jose is 1 million people itself plus surrounding cities. Concord is 100,000 plus their surrounding area another 400,000? Now VC & Bellarmine are pretty darn good but better than Cal last year, or MV the 2 years before that? Advantage, certainly but to take it to the level they have can not be explained away by some advantage. St. Mary’s Stockton has similar advantage and while very good has not taken their program to this level. Few if any have. The great coach from St. Thomas Aquinas has 2 1/2 times as many losses I believe as Lad w/ DLS. Just using an example not trying to debate anyone about the greatness that is Florida.
March 7th, 2011 at 4:57 pm
Well, all I can say about DLS, is that whenever they go to the South (my home region ) they tend to get their heads handed to them. There Are PUBLIC schools in Georgia that have three thousand seat high school stadiums (sold out every year) and large private christian academies where multi-thousand dollar scholarships are handed out like candy to star players.
Both play killer football, and other sports too, but even the largest public schools can’t compare to the ability of some private school alumni to whip out the checkbook. Thus—separate leagues.
It’s sort of like automobile racing; “how fast do you want to go? Really? how much money do you have? “
March 7th, 2011 at 5:13 pm
I don’t think they are nearly as many athletes in San Jose area as the East Bay. But I think VC & Bellarmine get every one of them. Can’t think of any really god San JOse schools. Atleast in football.
March 7th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
Mudhen- Heads handed to them? Huh? Last time I checked when playing teams from the South DLS is 1-1 with a win vs. Evangel Christian and a OT loss to Lakeland. The game against Aquinas will be the first time DLS has traveled to the South.
While I have made the argument before about the population in San Jose and the surrounding areas you have to remember that there are actually four private Catholic high schools there. Bellarmine, VC, Mitty, and St. Francis over in Mountain View. They all draw from the same general area. That being said Bellarmine is the only all-boys school out of the group and they have 1,500 students. The only public school in that area that consistently has had good teams over the recent years is Oak Grove.
March 7th, 2011 at 6:34 pm
Hey, a voice of reason. Welcome back R10.
DLS rarely gets their heads handed to them, and there is certainly no pattern to it. They lose every now and then due to their tough scheduling, but they’ll give STA all they can handle.
March 7th, 2011 at 7:29 pm
if you agree with me = voice of reason
March 7th, 2011 at 7:52 pm
Ok. It’s established that DLS has some advantages. And it seems to be pretty well believed that those edges outweigh the disadvantages of a private school (tuition, less able to skate by academically, whatever).
The problem is that no one has really proposed much of a solution. Separating teams out by public and private seems nice, but unless other sections join in, it won’t work.
Someone brought up the WCAL as an example. But look at how that plays out. You have one team with almost as many boys as the next largest school has students, and they still don’t dominate. The way DLS operates makes a similar situation an impossibility. Beyond that, the WCAL schools still participate in section playoffs, so if a DLS was among them, they would still off the San Leandros and Cal Highs of the world just the same.
Looking at the idea of a catholic school league by itself in the NCS opens up its own problems. The gap between DLS and the next largest private school is 800 kids (gender adjusted). The next biggest after that has 900 total kids, less than the population of boys at DLS. If you decided on a catholic school league, you are basically saying, “sorry guys, the rest of the world can’t compete, so you all are the sacrificial lambs to keep them at bay.”
Herein lies the problem, DLS is just an outlier. The only solutions to deal with them seem to be reshaping the system into some format that excludes them, consigns them to being a big fish in a smaller pond. To do so would essentially be marching backwards, splintering competition.
If you sent DLS away to some other league it would eventually return. The team has been tearing up the best league in the Bay Area (eight teams with three total losses to non-league opponents). Give it three seasons annihilating some alternative Catholic league, and they would be moved back to the rest of the NCS with teams nearer their level. Meanwhile every champion would have the pall of a winning a title knowing the best team was cut out of the competition all together.
March 7th, 2011 at 7:54 pm
have to agree with r10′s post #136
March 7th, 2011 at 8:53 pm
Just think…if Lad had landed just a few klicks away at Berean Christian in ’85 the Eagle-hood would’ve been flying high for 20+ years…. in football that is. El Divisadero Park would’ve been made into an identical funkified baseball field with the short RF porch. The East stands would have the track behind them too! The BC Eagles, “#1″ team in the nation….lol.
March 8th, 2011 at 12:50 am
No Junior, he is just normally a voice of reason in here. He seems like a real level headed guy. He wasn’t agreeing with anything I had posted, just sticking up for his Spartans in a reasonable tone to a post from someone else, which is fine.
March 8th, 2011 at 7:12 am
Excelleant debate gentlemen.
Any news on coaching hires?
Albany, Alameda, Dublin or Piedmont, or any new ones?
March 8th, 2011 at 7:33 am
If DLS played in the premier leagues in Texas, Florida, Or Alabama (or Georgia, or Tennessee ), then much like the SEC where week in week out you get hammered, win or lose, well,you’de find out just how tough southern football(where you have to PASS as well as run), really is.
March 8th, 2011 at 8:54 am
To all
Some of you bring up the surrounding population as an answer to why their is not a problem comparing them to other private schools in the northern areas. Others site the difference in the brotherhood and how much better the DLS coaches are as compared to public schools. The truth is the basket of solid football players in a radius of 30 miles of Concord contains just so many student athletes that all schools in that circle would love to have on their teams. Currently most families in that circle believe they can maximize their sons ability and play on a large stage attending DLS. Now the NCS allows DLS to compete with the right to fill their team with any of these athletes and provide scholarships if needed by said families. Currently DLS does not need to recruit and can be selective on candidates to fill their academic and athletic quotas. No matter where you place DLS they will crush private schools whom are dividing their students with nearby private schools and public schools, as well. This is a snow ball going down hill growing larger and larger each year. The only answer is to wait for many years for a dramatic incident to change the land scape or have the NCS provide an even playing field by restricting private schools to a smaller geographic areas. The idea that a heavy travel schedule for DLS, competing against other nationally ranked schools would solve the problem is wrong. DLS touring the country playing a schedule of nationally ranked schools is not the answer either because then your mimicking the flawed system currently in place with the NCAA. There would be nothing stopping this snow ball from reaching an epidemic of athletes from Texas staying with families in Antioch while attending DLS.
March 8th, 2011 at 10:33 am
Junior- I am a diehard DLS fan. If you have read any convos Prep Fan and I have had on this board you would realize that there are a lot of things on which we don’t see eye to eye. What we do agree on is the ability to have reasonable discussions about topics such as this even if we don’t agree with each other.
March 8th, 2011 at 2:54 pm
I am happy for you and prep fan.
Correction:
If you are nice and soft in your posting=voice of reason.
March 8th, 2011 at 7:18 pm
I think this is good but I think Berkeley and St Joes be switched
March 8th, 2011 at 9:49 pm
Actually Joe, there was a solution proposed in which De La Salle goes independent and plays only CAL, SRV, MV, AV, and FOOT every year. That way they wouldn’t officially be members of the East Bay Athletic League and they could play five national teams. I don’t know how in the world this hasn’t been approved yet (and because of this I understand why you felt it couldn’t have been proposed in the first place), but I do know that it is a far, FAR better idea than for them to play Granada and Livermore and ambush them every year. There wouldn’t be issues with proximity either, as DLS can travel within the Bay Area in future years instead of flying all the way to Florida. I thought about it and realized that this is also a way better solution than moving them to the WCAL, as it would be impossible anyway to integrate NCS and CCS schools together. Lastly, I don’t think we have to worry too much about DLS being an outlier. Considering CAL came out of a losing season to come so close to beating DLS, either they may go down next year or the year after, or there is no way the proposal I mentioned as now being the best could fall through a hole in the floor. Remember that Coach Bellici has only been at CAL for two years and that we may not have seen anything yet. Wasn’t there a blog twenty-two months ago in which a bunch of people thought CAL would tumble to the bottom with Livermore? Didn’t SportStars think this would happen to CAL last year? I see where the trend is headed, and hopefully this offers hope in the midst of all the problems you mention. After all, a blog needs a point, and the point is, there seems to be sufficient evidence it will all work out.
And Storm, your quote “The only answer is to wait for many years for a dramatic incident to change the land scape or have the NCS provide an even playing field by restricting privates schools to a smaller geographic areas” is a little short of the truth because of the proposal I mentioned. So with those three things perhaps you may sense the snowball losing mass and acceleration significantly at some point before those good ol’ Texans even think about putting on some green and silver.
March 9th, 2011 at 12:22 am
Interesting call THEanonymous, though I assume it still ends with DLS in the NCS playoffs. I’d like that I suppose.
I also wouldn’t call what DLS does to Livermore and Granada “ambushing.” That implies some surprise ro trickery. Anyway, I asked for a workable plan, and you have provided and interesting one. I’m sure some here will want more, but I like it as a step.
March 9th, 2011 at 3:37 am
if they can afford to fly to new jersey, florida, etc then they can afford to be in the WCAL…as much as i believe there should be a private and public seperation for playoff and state purposes…
why would DLS oppose the idea of playing 5 or 6 private schools every year. yes cal gave them a decent game this year. but still serra seems to be the team of late that has come the closest and they havent even been the best team in CCS…my point is when privates play privates it is a different type of game…
may call it whinning..but i am more speaking to DLS..if you are the class of the football (nationally) and YOU ARE then why not play the best week in week out. not saying the EBAL is 2nd rate, but the WCAL would provide better competition overall. the “brotherhood” you talk about can only be attained at a private school level. i think mixed with privates week in week out foster’s better competition…through competition greatness appears. there was a time DLS was tested by a few public high schools in ncs every year. but now in the playoffs when is the last time anyone has even given them a game? a few instances in regular season maybe, but not the playoffs. where depth, health, and stamina of course kick in..
if i were at DLS and i prided myself on this greatness, this brotherhood, this work ethic, this coaching…wouldn’t i want to prove it vs the best. the best is not the NCS playoffs vs a bunch of publics that can’t match them..the best would be vs privates…
like i said before and i got 0 response from the DLS faithful, which sorry makes me question how much you like competition over your gaudy record. other than putting your greatness on the line maybe 2-3 games a year, how about 10 games a year as teams from socal, texas, etc do. put a little chink in that depth, that stamina, that health. have an opening round playoff game vs st marys stockton, vs serra, bellarmine, st francis, valley christian, etc not the american’s of NCS or getting a bye this year where is the fun in that? how is it fun winning by 40+ every year in the playoffs?
now obviously your response will be publics rise up…but it hasn’t happened, it won’t happen, they are only capable of so much w the hand that is delt to them. and not sure anyone has noticed or just ignoring it but the cultural landscape is changing in pleasanton, danville, san ramon, etc. so it isn’t going to get in better (football wise anyways). those teams are going to be getting less and less potential football players. don’t have an accurate account but i would say most of these teams have seen a significant drop in overall players coming to the program.
March 9th, 2011 at 6:38 am
Solution = Let DLS play in EBAL but exclude them from NCS. Have a private school bracket for sectionals, or just allow them to be eligible for the OPEN division game for state. Allow the teams that are playing by the same enrollment rules to compete for an NCS title.
Under this scenario Cal High would have gone to state as the Division 1 rep and DLS would have still won the OPEN. What’s wrong with that?
March 9th, 2011 at 6:59 am
dont think just giving them the open is good for competition..can’t hand anybody anything…
also i think paly was more than deserving of that d1 title game, beating a team much much better than them…
cal high had arguably the best EBAL season (minus DLS) in the past decade, but can’t just write them in as d1 representing for future if DLS was no longer there..remember they are one year removed from a 1st round exit…no disrespect in that, it is just the life of a public school as kids come and go and have to take the hand that is delt not always the same talent right behind.
March 9th, 2011 at 7:03 am
The Anonymous
Thank you for your input to our discussion. My comment is the reality of the past and present, but I hope your right and I am wrong. I realize that all DLS has ever wanted was enough league games (5) to qualify for NCS and state. Not sure they would be affiliated with a league if the NCS, and CIF did not make this a said requirement. Norcalball’s comment regarding the talent being sliced even further with the public schools is right on. I am involved in another high school sport and have noticed the fall off of available talent. DV has cut even deeper in the San Ramon talent pool taking some of the athletes destined for Cal, SRV and MV.
March 9th, 2011 at 8:19 am
DLS did not want to be in the EBAL in the first place but no league will take them without all sports. It is the best competition however for football. DLS has proposed to the section being “Independent” years earlier when, Pitt, Ant, Clayton agreed to play them every year and get them out of the BVAL in terms of League Championship. They may have even played a few years this way, Renegades would remember. Funny I don’t remember any of the EBAL schools offering to add them to their schedule every year then. Pretty difficult deal, I like the idea by the way, but you need at least 5 core teams to play every year minimum. No way the WCAL wants them for football only and what do you do with the other 25 athletic teams? I would think 2-3 WCAL would be willing to play them in Non-League each year, at least Serra & Bells. DLS going to Florida costs the school less than traveling to Granada for a game. ESPN is televising the game and is paying obviously, they might even be making money, I have no knowledge of that, but it is not costing them a penny I am sure.
March 9th, 2011 at 8:25 am
Listen to Coach Lad’s interview with Gary Radnich- DLS does not make any money on the televised games.
March 9th, 2011 at 3:14 pm
But DLS definitely doesn’t pay a dime to play in those games. That’s become a pretty hard and fast rule for DLS. They won’t play a game that costs them a dime.
March 9th, 2011 at 5:06 pm
Taking this back to what the original article was discussing (the Bay Shore’s plan for keeping Castro Valley), I pointed out that there’s only 22 football playing members in this new plan. I asked Jimmy in the basketball chat last night if he’d heard anything, and he suggested Moreau and Salesian as the teams that could be used to make this work. If that happens, here’s the way I see it playing out (at least at the start):
MVAL football stays the same, plus
Football Division 1 – Alameda, Berkeley, Bishop O’Dowd, Castro Valley, Encinal, San Leandro
Football Division 2 – Arroyo, Hayward, Moreau, Mt. Eden, San Lorenzo, Tennyson
Football Division 3 – El Cerrito, Piedmont, Pinole Valley, St. Mary’s, SPSV, Salesian
Football Division 4 – Albany, De Anza, Hercules, Kennedy, Richmond, Swett
March 9th, 2011 at 7:01 pm
Gades,
I was in your neck of the woods today, Boise airport, I heard Barton and Houston got offers from UCLA today…Jimmy is right, DLS does not pay a dime to travel out of state they do ask parents for a reasonable amount to cover incidentals and the sort….
Sng
March 9th, 2011 at 9:45 pm
HS Football Fan, I think your breakdown is workable.
No outrageous travel
competitive equity
interesting match-ups
natural rivalries
The only flaw I see is unequal school sizes but no plan is perfect.
March 9th, 2011 at 10:16 pm
The difficult part of the debate to comprehend is that DLS Football is a complete abberation. They are not just the top football team in the NCS (for 19 years running), they are the top team in the UNITED STATES for the last nineteen years. There is no SOLUTION for DLS winning. As long as Lad is the coach, they will be among the top Ten in the United States. That is a high bar for anyone in the country to compete with.
If DLS could play WCAL football only, they probably would. But the WCAL wants all of the sports or nothing, which is perfectly reasonable.
A team like Cal with a great young coach will probably give DLS fits. DLS will lose eventually but think about it; when DLS loses it will be like a “lightning strike”, an unfortunate footnote (for DLS fans) enroute to another incredible streak.
I think Lad is only about 56 years old, conceivably he could coach another 10-15 years. It really IS about coaching and the program bult up over a very long time.
Win or lose, I bet that EBAL players will remember and swap stories about games played against the Spartans for many years to come. They will get no such memories from a non-league game against Mt. Eden.
March 10th, 2011 at 7:26 am
EBAL Fan#2= a voice of reason…….
March 11th, 2011 at 8:09 pm
I think EBAL fan #2 meant to say “they are the top team in the United States on average during the past nineteen years.” in other words, not for each and every one of those years. Otherwise, his post seems pretty flawless. Hopefully 2012 can pull a miracle out of the hat.
March 11th, 2011 at 8:10 pm
(meaning class of 2012)
March 15th, 2011 at 7:10 pm
Anybody hear who got the Dublin & Piedmont jobs?
March 23rd, 2011 at 6:36 pm
Heard John Wade is the new Dublin Head Coach. DC from Piedmont got the job.
March 23rd, 2011 at 8:24 pm
I actually heard that Wade was offered and turned it down. PERKIN can you confirm that he is the coach or is it still rumor?
DC from Piedmont got which job? Piedmont or Miramonte?
March 23rd, 2011 at 9:03 pm
Can’t confirm heard from a friend of a friend. DC from Piedmont got the Piedmont job.
March 24th, 2011 at 9:23 am
Is Wade the new coach at Dublin? If so that is a great hire by the Gaels. Wade is a very successful coach and the facilities and a chance to build Dublin into a winner must have been too good to pass up.
Who is the DC from Piedmont and is it confirmed that he got the job?
What about Alameda and Albany, are those jobs open?
Any other jobs open?
March 24th, 2011 at 10:49 am
Alameda went in house with their offensive coordinator.
Albany hired offensive coordinator from San Leandro – Troutman
March 24th, 2011 at 11:55 am
Albany got a new HC or OC?
March 24th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
calling all baby sitter calling all baby sitters
its time 2 stop calling yourself coaches if you cant coach you know who you are hiding behind a cap and a clip board. all the coaching clinics in the world cant help. u will soon find out it was the kids talent not ur coaching that got u by they won in spite of not because of u. BOW UR HEAD IN HOMAGE!!! HUMBLE UR SELF AND STEP AWAY FROM THE FIELD PUT THE WHISTLE DOWN DONT CALL ANOTHER PLAY
4 THE LUV OF GOD mann
March 24th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
Wade leaves Miramonte? Why would he do that? He’s built an empire down there and has everything in place how he wants it so I do not see that rumor being true. If he did in fact leave then that would be a hot job to have. I heard about Alameda making there OC the new head coach so we’ll see how that works out. There offense was good the past few years so now lets see what he can do calling all the shots. Albany’s new head coach Troutman should change some things up over there but has his work cut out for him. Albany is soft when it come to football and don’t remember when the last time they had a winning season. Don’t know much about the Piedmont DC but if he made all the calls on defense then I don’t know how much they will improve over the next three years.
March 24th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
INTHEKNOW
how do u about all the hires
March 24th, 2011 at 1:31 pm
man down when u say albany is soft what does that mean
March 24th, 2011 at 2:03 pm
Chalktalk what the heck are you talking about with post 172?
March 24th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Intheknow
are u a coach
or a glorified baby sitter
do u disguise ur lack of knowledge with verbiage
do u have to coach the most talented team in order to be successful. Do u force kids to practice inferior Technics then yell at them when they fail i can go on …….
March 24th, 2011 at 10:55 pm
Go on… please. I still have no idea what you are talking about. I am just an interested follower of high school football in the bay area. You, on the other hand, sound like an angry person….. why are you so mad?!
March 25th, 2011 at 4:54 am
football is an art to me. so when u have people that cant even draw stick figures trying 2 teach a kid 2 paint its sickens me. SEE WHEN U R ARTIST WEATHER IT BE A
genius
painter
musician or superior athlete
you know without a doubt the natural flow of things.
TECHNIQUE COMES FROM STUDYING TALENTED PEOPLE
the reason y TEACHING technique will never be prefect u cant describe the motionS of THERE action with the timing of the flow.
WHICH IS HOW U TRANSFER UR WEIGHT TO BE THE MOST EFFICIENT. AND U JUST CANT TEACH THAT
BRUCE LEE ” u must become like water when u expand i contact when u contact i expand when u are weak i dont strike it strikes for me”.
( time to get some work in cuz WORK = EXPERIENCE = KNOWLEDGE = POWER)
but u should know all this
INTHEKNOW
March 25th, 2011 at 7:24 am
BRUCE LEE ” u must become like water when u expand i contRact when u contRact i expand when u are weak i dont strike it strikes for me”.
March 25th, 2011 at 8:26 am
WOW
Chalktalk = Charlie Sheen wanna be
March 25th, 2011 at 9:02 am
ncs fan
nice come back 4 a fool
or a RUDY
ncs fan u were just happy not 2 get cut
dont expect u 2 understand how 2 be great
charlie sheen great actor
ur moms = cougar pornstar
March 25th, 2011 at 2:13 pm
C talk, your rants are pretty entertaining…curious, what message are you trying to convey? I am perplexed and yet entertained by you! Help us out here…
March 25th, 2011 at 2:45 pm
# 183 u shouldnt be entertained u should b learning
the truth
the fact that ur entertained mean ur not gifted
so go ask a gifted person how he moves
March 25th, 2011 at 3:00 pm
#183 ur the type that get ran over then wonders y ur technique didnt work timing RUDY timing
March 25th, 2011 at 10:44 pm
Chalk, WTF? what are you rambling about son?
March 25th, 2011 at 11:05 pm
Somebody grab the crack pipe from chalktalk before it is too late.
March 26th, 2011 at 8:24 am
what kind of offenses will Albany and Alameda be using under their new regimes?
WHO is the new Dublin coach or is it still open?
March 26th, 2011 at 9:27 am
today’s lesson let the game b about the kids
dont let ur ego get in the way of ur greatness
March 26th, 2011 at 9:33 am
junior
tiger blood is my vice
March 26th, 2011 at 10:29 am
You got me to laugh on that one chalk!
March 26th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
For football purposes only, put De La Salle (DLS) in a league that consists of St. Mary’s (Stockton), Marin Catholic, Moreau Catholic, Bishop O’ Dowd, and one other private school. Next, the top two schools from that league, would battle the top two schools from the WCAL in a NorCal Open Division playoff.
With the exception of those two “private” school football leagues, the rest of the various sectional playoffs within NorCal would continue as they do now. So we are talking about a 5-game league season, which for DLS would work out well, allowing them to continue playing their games against nationally ranked opponents.
St. Mary’s has become a consistent power within the SJS, though not at the level, which DLS has operated at for over 3-decades now. But those Rams are getting closer to that level each season. One reason they do not win the SJS every season, is because there is better depth within the SJS. What do I mean by that? Well there is a greater number of powerful teams that exist lie within the SJS, as compared to the NCS.
I am not just talking about Grant (Sacramento) either. Schools like Rocklin and Folsom come to mind too, each having won the past three SJS D-II titles. Last season Folsom finished ranked as the #5 team nationally, according to Max Preps. Nevada Union has played in 3 of the past 6, SJS D-I title games, winning two of them.
I am not at all saying, that either Rocklin or Folsom could have beaten DLS the past two seasons. But without a doubt they would have posed more of a playoff threat to DLS than Heritage, Granada, and California did this past season. Likewise with American, Foothill, Monte Vista and Pittsburg during the 2009 NCS playoffs. A dandy of a game would have been DLS vs. Grant in 2008, that was the season Grant received the Open division bowl, and DLS the D-I bowl. Grant went on to upend LB Poly, while DLS were edged by Centennial, 21-16.
But anyhow I think that if St. Mary’s (Stockton), and not DLS were in the EBAL. They would be the team to beat, and still would have beaten Cal for the league crown last year. Okay last season DLS beat the Rams, 49-14. But it was only 14-14, a 19-0 3rd quarter run by the Spartans was the difference. Remember in 2009 the Rams beat a very good Bellermine team, 34-10. The Bells wound up playing in the state D-II bowl, and barely lost that game vs. Oceanside, 24-19.
I just do not see any NCS school, with the exception of DLS, being able to go toe-to-toe against a SoCal power. Whereas in recent years history has seen SJS schools like Grant (2008, won), Rocklin (2009, lost 33-30 to Servite the overall state champion), Folsom (2010, won, whipping Serra-Gardena), St. Mary’s (2008, lost to Cathedral Catholic-San Diego, 37-34), and etc.
But as far as NCS goes, only Cardinal Newman, and Marin Catholic in D-III, and Novato to an extent in D-II have demonstated anything, though they all lost in those games. However, in a 2006 loss to highly touted Oaks Christian, Cardinal Newman played tough in a 27-20 loss. The same can be said of Marin Catholic during their 2009 bowl loss to Serra (Gardena), which was only a 24-20 setback.
No way will NCS D-I contenders like Berkeley, James Logan, Pittsburg, SRV, MV, and etc be able to do this. In D-II besides Cardinal Newman, and Marin Catholic, perhaps Encinal, or a program on the rise, like Bishop O’ Dowd with head coach Hardy Nickerson now running the show can get to that level. But at the moment the SJS and CCS schools seem to have more talent. Remember Palo Alto has had some good teams the past few seasons, they also won the D-I bowl game last season against Centennial (Corona), 15-13. They also reached the D-II bowl game in 2006. Bellermine went 12-1 and won the CCS Open Division in 2008, but were unable to secure a bowl berth.
March 26th, 2011 at 12:41 pm
If De La Salle remains a member of the EBAL, perhaps someone will be able to create an innovative offensive style of play, one specifically designed to beat the Spartans. But probably more importantly a conditioning program that rivals the one at DLS.
Or another way to attack DLS is to have a simple offense, but with those basic plays be able to execute them to perfection. That would be out of the Vince Lombardi school of thought. His Green Bay Packers practiced a few basic plays to perfection, and then executed as a machine during their games.
Right now DLS is like a machine, because they execute, display discipline, and are highly conditioned. A couple years ago, I believed that they would elevate the level of play throughout the EBAL. That the opposing league schools would adjust to them, and eventually pattern their programs after DLS. So far I do not really see that. Sure MV had a good squad, led by a QB now at Stanford (Brett Nottingham). But they could not rise to the occasion. Last year Cal was clearly the next best team, but in two attempts they could not get it done against DLS.
So really until Lad hangs it up as a coach, probably in another 5-seasons, DLS will continue to rule the NCS football landscape. But they will not fade that quickly after his departure. I would say possibly another 3-seasons following his retirement, the Spartans will slip a notch. Meaning not winning an NCS football crown.
February 19th, 2013 at 6:42 pm
Hi,
I’m trying to make contact with someone named Dave Kiesel with whom I was in St. Edward’s Seminary in the Seattle area during the 1960s. Is the Dave Kiesel mentioned in this article this person?