Grove gets the nod at center
By Jerry McDonald - NFL Writer
Tuesday, August 26th, 2008 at 2:33 pm in Oakland Raiders.
It was some time during late July when Jake Grove was asked about the surgery on right knee when he politely excused himself.
“You know, I think I’ll save that story for a few more weeks when I win the starting job,” Grove said with a smile before heading off to his room. “I’ll tell you all about it.”
That day came Tuesday, when Kiffin named Grove the starting center for the regular season opener against Denver on Sept. 8. Grove, when talking to reporters in front of his locker, revealed he’d had microfracture surgery in July to repair extensive damage in a knee which has bothered him since his second season.
The procedure involves creating tiny fractures around adjacent bones, enabling protective cartilage to develop. Jeremy Newberry, after nearly two full years out of football, had microfracture surgery, was able to play last season for the Raiders and is now a backup with the Chargers.
Grove said the knee has been an issue ever since the initial injury in Week 2 in 2005, despite surgery later that year.
“It’s been a continual process until I got things right this year,” Grove said. “It has made a big difference for me. I couldn’t move right to left. I could go to my right, I just couldn’t plant on my left. You can’t just tell the coach, `Nah, let’s just run right.’ It doesn’t work too good. Getting that thing fixed has been the biggest thing for me.”
Kiffin admitted he expected John Wade to win the job as the starter when the 11-year veteran was signed during free agency.
“It was very close, both guys played extremely well in preseason, gave them both starts, gave them equal opportunities,” Kiffin said. “I wouldn’t have guessed when we signed (Wade), but Jake’s rehab, the way he’s come back, ended up beating him out.”
Grove worked hard on his upper body as he rehabbed his knee and also took to the weight training and nutritional philosophies of strength coach Brad Roll, checking in at just under 300 pounds for the first time.
“He’s much stronger, quicker,” Kiffin said. “He came out and took the job. He earned it. He didn’t get it by default. I love the way that it went down as opposed to just being out here and not having competition.”
Other quick hits from Tuesday’s practice and media sessions:
– Linebacker Robert Thomas left the field during warmups with a knee injury and was getting checked out at the hospital.
– Wade will be crosstrained at one or both guard spots and will need to demonstrate he can be a viable guard if he is to make the 53-man roster. Wade has been a center for his entire 11-year NFL career.
– Kiffin didn’t mention it during his press briefing, but Javon Walker was not at practice. His locker was untouched, with his towel folded neatly on the bench. A player inquired as to Walker’s whereabouts, wondering if Kiffin had addressed it with reporters.
A Raiders team official said Walker was excused for personal reasons.
– Michael Bush needn’t worry about morphing into the second coming of Lorenzo Neal. He began getting some reps at fullback Monday, and didn’t seem overly enthused about it when talking to reporters after practice.
He probably would have felt a lot better had Kiffin given him the same speech he gave to reporters Tuesday.
“Michael Bush is a tailback here,” Kiffin said. “We’re going to look at some things in certain personnel to utilize him because he catches the ball so well and he is a bigger tailback. But don’t mistake that. We claimed a fullback. We’ll look for another fullback to compete with this guy or, depending on how this guy does this week, the final waiver cut.
Michael Bush isn’t here to be a fullback. Michael Bush has a chance to be a spectacular tailback in this league and that’s what he’s here to play.”
Luke Lawton practiced for the first time as a Raider, wearing No. 44.
– Kiffin said cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha (ankle) and safety Rashad Baker (ankle) would not play against Seattle. Safety Hiram Eugene (hip) could see action if he practices Wednesday.
– Barring a setback, Kiffin said Sebastian Janikowski would handle some kickoffs and place kicking against the Seahawks before giving way to Glenn Pakulak. Aaron Elling, who was the place kicker for the past two games, was cut along with Drisan James to bring the Raiders to the 75-player maximum.
Pakulak will also assume punting duties from Shane Lechler (quad), who has not sufficiently recovered.
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August 26th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Bad news for Brien! LOL!
August 26th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Now Walker is MIA???
August 26th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
RAIDERS!!!
August 26th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Glad to hear it:
Michael Bush is a tailback here,” Kiffin said. “We’re going to look at some things in certain personnel to utilize him because he catches the ball so well and he is a bigger tailback. But don’t mistake that. We claimed a fullback. We’ll look for another fullback to compete with this guy or, depending on how this guy does this week, the final waiver cut.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
It’s good to get an explanation as to why Grove was so bad during that stretch.
Now if we could just get some Tackles
August 26th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Jhill,
yep, 2 real tackles and a WR next year and we should be on our way…
August 26th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
so hopefully every one will back away from the ledge now about Bush running a few plays as a full back. let’s concede that maybe Kiffin does have some sense about what he’s doing.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Nice reasoning RadierLen you sound just like your hero.
Why don’t we take away their seats and chairs in school.
What kid ever stood still in class.
Maybe they can inherit some classroom materials through the trickle down theory.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Any President who gets us 2 more Superbowl wins is alright by me…
August 26th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Walker is probably hanging out in Vegas with Pacman making it rain and spraying champaign on innocent bystanders.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Hopefully Javon decided to retire again. Let’s hope Al Davis does not stop him this time.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Build houses for habitat for humanity and sits down with terrorist organizations.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
666…so we have big oil, big insurance, and big banking…They are ALL dwarfed by BIG GOVERNMENT. Trickle down is defined by sending YOUR money to a bunch of leeches in Washington so that they can send back to You 10 cents in services for every one of YOUR/MINE tax dollars.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Maybe Walker has a court date.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
[...] gets the nod at center Grove gets the nod at center - Inside The Oakland Raiders - A look inside the world of the highly cl… __________________ *The proceeding link is not affiliated by this site, nor the provider. listed [...]
August 26th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Answer, That 1 term loser who was surprised the Russians lied to him when they said they were NOT going to invade Afghanistan, JIMMY CARTER
August 26th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
If we get some quality play from our Tackles, we might actually see some plays from our current group of WRs.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
The Cardinals made our T’s look pathetic, if this is the case, it’s going to be another long season. We’re talking about the Cardinals for crying out loud!
August 26th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Jmarc did a good job however getting out of the pocket. The kid has a cannon of an arm. Would like to see us go deep a little more to Javon “Make it Rain” Walker.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
The Jets released a talented young lineman we should take a look at. Thaddeus Coleman was on my list of potential ZBS candidates and at the very least would provide competition at OT, if not decent depth.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
666,lets leave it alone,agree to disagree!RAIDERS
August 26th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Giggidy!
August 26th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
The really discouraging part was the missed blitz pickup and more importantly, the missed blocks on run plays by Harris.
It was very surprising.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Why did he get released from the Jets? Do they run a ZBS?
August 26th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Instead of trying to teach Wade to be a Guard, why don’t we pick up a good veteran?
For example, the Jags cut Chris Liwienski yesterday. The downside: He is now 33 and started 14 games for the Dolphins last season. The upside: He has vast experience (94 starts), is smart, tough and ready. We desperately need some experienced back-up behind Gallery and Carlisle. I think someone like Liwienski would be a sensible move.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Yes, because what loosens people up more than discussing our polital ideals and differences?
August 26th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Man, Wade seems to be sucking. I thought Grove was unimpressive.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
You know RL, that’s a good point. My kid won’t ear veggies at school either, as with most kids.
But having the ballz to go with the “ketchup is a veggie” argument is straight out laffs. They don’t even hide the fact that they know we’re stupid enough to buy it.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Giggidy giggidy Grove
August 26th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Can anybody think of some surprises we might see when we have to trim down to the 53 man roster?
August 26th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Dakota#34…I blame You man :)…I don’t usually talk politics.
Just kidding. Gotta be personally accountable for our actions.
666…It’s all good…we simply have different perspectives.
Go Raiders…On that I think we can all agree…uh other than MR.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
POST 16 THE moron peanut farmer,his brother billy bob brought him cold ones,while he read playboy,never looked at the pictures.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I can see Wade, Sam Williams, and William Joseph being but.
Williams may be safe if Thomas has a significant injury.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Jhill…I don’t think anyone believes Ketchup to be a vegatable…lol…but in the lawyer driven world of Politcs up is down etc…etc…etc..
August 26th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
What happened to Edwards? He was a beast in the first game. I haven’t even heard his name since.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Whats the difference between Obambi and the peanut farmer?
August 26th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Biggest surprise?
Jon Condo will again make the team. Why? No one really knows. He reminds me of the fat guy with the red stapler in Office Space…does nothing and gets a paycheck. Al needs to cut his azz and train a real lineman how to long snap and run down the field to tackle.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
FYI
In the United States, the Food and Drug Administration has prohibited the use of the word “ketchup” on product labels unless the product conforms to a set of strict guidelines. Despite the more general origins of the word, all products marketed as ketchup in the United States must be thickened only with tomato solids, and the viscosity of the sauce must be within a very narrow range. The nutrient content of the sauce is also tightly regulated.
Ketchup has been found to be a beneficial source of lycopene, an antioxidant which may help prevent some forms of cancer. This is particularly true of the organic brands of ketchup. In fact, organic brands were found to contain three times as much lycopene as non-organic brands.Ketchup, much like marinara sauce and other cooked tomato foods, yields higher levels of lycopene per serving because cooking makes lycopene in tomatoes more bio-available.
source:Wiki
August 26th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
The new FB, Luke Lawton, can longsnap. But Jon Condo’s linebacking ability is supposed to be a big bonus on special teams…and he was snap-perfect last season.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
My spelling is horrible today.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
I am assuming from Kiff’s comments that Reece and Rankin are bound for the Practice Squad, which could end up something like:
1) Rankin RB
2) Reece FB
3) Gunheim DE
4) Rodd OG
5) Sanchez DB
6) Keller QB
Keller is in on the assumption that Kiff only goes with 2 QBs on the roster and Tui is cut.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Thank G! ….MB being classified as a blocking FB? Man, I was almost ready to turn on Kiffin for that move. But as a means of getting him on the field with DMC or Fargas in Pro-Sets or the like - by all means. But at least save him the dignity of calling it a 2HB set.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Somebody go check on Brien before he jumps off the Golden Gate Bridge.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Repubs want to castrate the Govt so that there’s no oversight capabalities on their Corp gangster friends.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
KoolKell Says:
August 26th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
The Indians and Chinese produce way more scientists and engineers than we do.
—————————————————
And what technolgy they can’t produce they steal!
August 26th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
KK #67…TRUE…gotta pull/row together!
August 26th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Dakota,
For you. Notice Ore-Ida is owned by Heinz
http://www.oreida.com/varieties/hashbrowns.aspx
August 26th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
KK#72…thats right…ONLY Republicans are Gangsters and Crooks…You don’t REAllY BELIEVE THAT..do You?
August 26th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Yes KK, someday, under Obama and the Democratic party all the nations of the world will unite and sing:
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
Someones singing lord, kumbaya
Someones singing lord, kumbaya
Someones singing lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbayah
Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someones laughing, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
Someones crying, lord, kumbaya
Someones crying, lord, kumbaya
Someones crying, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
Someones praying, lord, kumbaya
Someones praying, lord, kumbaya
Someones praying, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
Someones sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Someones sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Someones sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
August 26th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Pass the lettucce…kumbaya
August 26th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
post57,the current congress is controlled by whom?Ill be 6 feet under before that happens,lock and load!
August 26th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
China is a deeply Confucian society, that coincidently made a good fit with communism. Confucian philosophy puts the group before the individual. America is just the oposite. Me, Me, Me, F you!
August 26th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
let them eat “ketsup”
August 26th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
#88 lol
August 26th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Dakota:
I’ve been saying that for months, I just can’t understand it. He must know where the body is buried. Some guys have actually come in here in his defense by stating he’s a good special teams player. Good on special teams is nothing special. Condo is taking up a player spot for a player of need and depth. I just can’t understand it.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Parris Warren was cut by tampa,we could use a big fast reciever
August 26th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
#92…LMAO
August 26th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
#100 LMFAO!
August 26th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
#101 Oakglenn seriously LMFAO!
and I am still shocked that I agreed with KK 100%
August 26th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Exla #107…Yes…LOL…I’ve got the Alzhiemers…too funny!
Where the hell did I get Triny Lopez?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
lets hammer the donkeys and ring THIER bell.I know what you did with the money EXLA !!!
August 26th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Just looking ahead to the 09 NFL draft. This cornerback, Morgan Trent, from michigan has “al davis pick” writen all over him. Watch as he chases the Florida Gators running back down the field. we will need depth and this kid just might land in our hands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JybFWy9_-Pk
August 26th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Dakota where do you live?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
post 115;hear hear Oakglenn,Im with you all the way on that one
August 26th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
POST 119,you the MAN!
August 26th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
I live in Seattle and will be going to the preseason game on Friday. Any requests as to what to watch for?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
TrevJo;our first team defence,they look nothing like last year!!!
August 26th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Al should go to cards for A B maybe a 2 and3 pick if heplays well at wr. or just wait to see if rooks come through T w looks good and so does chaz they still have A Shields hes been out but said skills r very good
August 26th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Just send him a bottle of Tanqueray.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
#140…leave it to Mom to set all of us straight!
Well said.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
I don’t know, but he outpointed the Clintons and won the Democratic Nomination for President.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
your mama
August 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
#138…Kell Your right…The Demos were a different party then as well.
Kennedy may have been assasinated because he wanted to do away with the PRIVATELY HELD…Federal Reserve.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
WIZ 76,Can Gallery carry on?I will have a shot of Canadian Whisky,Thank You ,and you will have?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
We should celebrate
August 26th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
im sorry I didnt know I was at the white house blog i thought Iwas at a RAIDER blog
August 26th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Cook…I’ll have 2 eggs over easy, a side of bacon, and a Left and right tackle.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Gallery is starting to live up to the legacy of 76, but he has work to do.
I will have Kentucky Strait Bourbon Whiskey and Water.
Van Winkle 12 year old.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Can anyone imagine what the turf at the Coliseum will look look towards the end of the season? The Raiders running game (probably 45 attempts p/g) will totally tear it up.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Cook…one more thing…a #1 wide reciever…and ah what the hell… a beast middle linebacker…Put it on My tab…
August 26th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
coming right up but yhe last 2 is going to take a while
August 26th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
# Terrapin Says:
August 26th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Somebody go check on Brien before he jumps off the Golden Gate Bridge.
_______________________________________________________
please don’t, he said Harris was no good, grove would be cut, and branch wasn’t better than Cooper..
August 26th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
LMN,
what do you drink?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Good to see some of you are about to open your eyes.. I won’t join your talk, since I think most here knows whats I mean..
August 26th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Cook#87…lol Thank You Sir
August 26th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
I drink beer.. we are a beer nation =)
August 26th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Night all, The mods did not like my singing so I’m out.
What would you do if I sang out of tune?
Oh well
Go Raiders!
August 26th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
#107
Winchester Cathedral That song has stayed with me since about 65 and the gal in whipped cream
August 26th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
TrevJo #83–
Yeah, How former Cal player Justin Forsett does against the Raiders. Ex-bear Lavelle Hawkins caught a TD pass against them. Maybe Forsett can score a TD as well.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
LMN…#86…WhaT? Please DO tell.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
I see the troll/mod is back at it again!
August 26th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
No, there is only one “NATION” thr RAIDER NATION!!
We drink it ALL!!
August 26th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Mom #90…I was to young to be able to make out the lyrics…but the title always has stuck with Me.
Any insight as to the meaning or message of the song?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
I see MOD.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Looks like many posts have been deleted.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Freedom of Speech?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Even my post about bringing Terry Glenn out of retirement is gone.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
The Brown Shirts are on the creep.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
All the POLITICAL stuff…Communists! Long live China!
Ah…not really
August 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
More like freedom to troll/mod…I bet you know who’s posts still exist.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Have I been deleted?
Am I still here?
Is it over?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Kell…You are right on…Bastards.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
666… IT…deleted all the Political discussion.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Can they delete the IR list?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Dakota #49
Thank you for posting the lyrics to Kumbaya. It’s one of my favorites. Now, would you happen to have the sheet music?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
76 #104 LOL That would be a trick.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Raiderlen read #97
August 26th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Seems pretty outrageous to me, against the 1st amendment. Slowly but surely our rights are being curtailed, while were asleep. Peace/out.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Len…no I dont
August 26th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
This blog is weird. out.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
WIZ76,Im pouring a shot of CROWN,again!Im waiting for Hills speech,could be fun!If u make a RAIDER game,perhaps a little Beam or Jack Daniels would be called for!I think Gallery is playing much better,hes found a home @ guard,the entire line is better than many think!
August 26th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I TUNES Says:
August 26th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Dakota #49
Thank you for posting the lyrics to Kumbaya. It’s one of my favorites. Now, would you happen to have the sheet music?
______________________________________________________
Here you go:
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_inside.html?item=518503&cart=342876906617930985&page=01&cm_mmc=smp-_-detail-_-lookinside-_-mainImage
August 26th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Mom #109…ok…Some MOM You are…
August 26th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Geez what happened here?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
WOW one more agreement with KK and I am going to stop blogging.
Our 5th amendment rights were slowly eroded away during the 80’s but a certain supreme court justice named William Hubbs Rehnquist. I will piss on his grave if given the chance.
Now mod that you troll.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
RaiderLen..
I assume you haven’t heard about these, or very little..
Carlsbergs and Tuborgs various beers: Old Carlsberg, Red Tuborg, Carls Special, Sort Guld(black gold), Den Gyldne Dame(The Golden Lady) Tuborg Classic, from the small breweries there is, AZ Ale no 16, Mors Stout (Mothers Stout)
From the Brittish Isles I like Kilkenny, Newcastle Brown Ale, Cafreys, Caledonian 80..
I only drink German beer when I’m in Munich to their beerfestival..
August 26th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Jack Daniels will do. Some say it is the necter of the gods.
Gallery must get much meaner, smarter, and with years at the posisition will come the savy of a true RAIDER gaurd.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
666. Ya mabey in deleting everything the Mod took the old scorched earth approach.
Hell Who Knows.
Terry Glenn..if available and healthy? Mabey?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
LMN,
What do you think of the United States?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Dakota #112–
Thank you so very much. If you put your ear to your computer you might hear me strumming my guitar and singing. Kumbaya my Lord…
August 26th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
LMN…ok…I must have missed something.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
lol raiderlen
I mentioned Terry Glenn because I don’t see Joe Horn as an option.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Instead of dividing along party lines, let’s start a new debate that we can all argue over. Who are the more hardcore Raiders fans? those of you who live on the west coast or those of us that live in the rest of the country and around the world? Any bites?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
have you seen the movie Beerfest?
Now that’s funny!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Grolsch is the real KING of beer.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
What’s a zj? If you don’t know, you can’t afford it.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
SnB666
No its not, its very very baad.. you should try the real thing.. thats funny!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Wizkey 76..I hope so…Hell Gallery should be in the 5th year of his Raider carrer as our starting Pro Bowl Left Tackle.
DAMN It!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Dakota..
post 119.. your beers? or what?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
666… #122..Ya, Joe Horn 5 Years ago sure…now…ehh
August 26th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
What ever happened to our rights to free spinach?…….Oh,….Nevermind!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
20/20 hindsight..
we should have kept our 2nd round pick, use it on Eddie Royal, then do the waiting game, and pick up Ricky Manning JR now just released by the bears..
August 26th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
RaiderNationPA
No matter how far apart we all are we will always have that common bond as Raider fans. Lets say I am traveling to the east coast (like Boston) and I see a guy with a Raider hat at a bar, I will go up to him and high five him and buy him a beer. You couldn’t do that with any other team in any other sport.
We are a unique bread!
Just because I was born in the Bay Area and lived here all of life as a Raider fan that doesn’t make me any more a hard core fan than you are in Pennsylvania. However I will say this…if you have not been in the Oakland coliseum during a game and felt the raw energy we produce during game time you have not fully experienced being a Raider fan!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
LMN…if D Hall picks off 8-10 passes this year and takes 1 or 2 or 3 to the house, will You feel differently?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
LMN I would love to go to Germany during Beer festival!!
Who wouldn’t!!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
666…#133…ALL TRUE
August 26th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Some day 666… Some day.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
USA,USA,USA, RAIDERS!!!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
RaiderNationPA–
Who travels the furthest to go to the games?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Garth #139…Not Me…I’m 20 miles away.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
While we’re talking about Horn and Glenn, I’m surprised no one has mentioned Johnson.
Anyway, there are a handful of young offensive linemen and wide recievers who were released today who we may want to take a look at.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
And I would say until you have had potatoes, crawfish, and snowballs thrown at you as you walk through a beer shower and gauntlet of verbal assault on your way to Heinz field, all the while proudly painted and dressed up from head to toe in silver and black… You have not fully experienced being a Raiders fan.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
RaiderLen..
what does it help, when we doesn’t have any deep weapons on O??
I know Hall is better, but he has to run those 8-10 all the way home to the endzone for us to win.. and just wait, some game Hall looses his head and gets a 65yds penalty again..
I hate when we trade 2nd and 3rd round picks..
August 26th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
TT…please share the insight
August 26th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
RaiderNationPA
That Rocks!!!!!
You earned your stripes….have you earned your red wings yet?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
But I have to admit that my dream is to someday see a Monday Night game against the Donkeys in the Colliseum.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
LMN…D Hall is a 24 year old Poven PRO BOWL Corner Back….That Is ALWAYS Worth a 2nd round pick.
Are You familiar with the phrase a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush?
Thats My perspective.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
SilverNblack666–
You say Raider fans are a “unique bread”. I say they are half-baked loafers and crumby fans.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
The pats actually released a FB who may be worth a look as well. Some of the top guys I would bring in are guys I liked late in last year’s draft. Thaddeus Coleman is an athletic tackle who was released by the Jets and could have potential in our system. Joel Filani is a talented reciever, but we have enough talented young guys as of right now. I’m content with the WRs we have because we’ll rarely see three WR sets, but if we add WRs, it should be experienced guys with hands. We already have enough athletes to develope and a few are showing signs. I’m most interested in improving the OL competion and depth, and eventually the starting lineup. For now, we should focus on adding competition in the trenches as we need to protect the most expensive, and talented, backfield in football.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
#148..hardi har har har…The Hollywood writers strike is over. get back to the office and start right’n them one liners for King of Queens or who ever You work for!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
RaiderLen..
yeah lets talk after we played Denver, Eddie Royal will kill us many times, the next many years..
I rather have that young bird in the hand and a old bird to support Nnamdi..
August 26th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Raiderlen #147
How about: A Bush in the backfield beats two butt-cheeks on the bench?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
666… I’m 23 and have been a Raiders fan since I was 10. That was in 1994. The Raiders have had a total of 4 winning seasons in those 14 years. All the while, I’ve lived in western PA (the Pittsburgh area). So its pretty much been me against the world my entire life. Besides that glorious 3 year period from 2000 to 2003, I have had to endure the mocking from the Queerler fans. I hope I have earned my stripes.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
RaiderLen, 20 miles away from????
August 26th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Denver has no chance week one without Marshall. Even worse for them is Dumerville may not play either. That would eliminate their best offensive player and their best lineman, offensive or defensive, and they were already week on both sides of the trenches.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
TT…I’m of like mind regarding the recievers. I want to see Watkins, Shillenz, and Shields develope. The O line is, to Me, the biggest area of concern.
If We can find a fit on the waiver wire…Great.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
I agree TT. Sept. 8 is the beginning of a new era.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Garth…The Colosseum
August 26th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I will admit it I have earned my red wings?
Who else?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
LMN…with all due respect…Eddie royal has done nothing YET. Good luck with the donkeys Bombong away at will with our secondary.
Did You Play football?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Some depth at LB wouldn’t hurt either ..
Unless of course we’re happy with the development of Alston and Ekubijah(sp).
August 26th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
A Bush in the backfiels way beats 2 cheeks on the bench! LOL That is funny and clever stuff!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Any word on the injury to Robert Thomas?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
raiderlen ,sorry,you lost me,I think Ill put the Crown Away,A post may have been deleted
August 26th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
I guess there are no takers 666… you stand alone atop that courageous mountain!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
RaiderLen..
yup, but of course nothing like your level
August 26th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
LMN…I meant American Football…sorry for the mis communication.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Harris, Gallery, Grove, Carlisle, and Green are our starters this year, like it or not. They form one of the best run blocking lines in the NFL and are improving against the pass. As a whole they’re an above average OL. Green is a player who must be replaced after this season while Carlisle’s age leaves him as a candidate to replace as well. Gallery is locked up as the starter at LG and, penalties aside, is one of the better guards in the league. We’ll see what we have is Harris. I have high hopes and reasonable expectations for Harris, but I’m not ready to overlook OT as one of our greatest needs. If Grove is finally completely healthy then it’s possible he could finally live up to his potential, but I’m not overly concerned about center right now. Green is the only starter who is not a starting caliber lineman, but I still want to see the OL improved. Our starters are set, but depth needs to be addressed. McQuistan is servicable and versatile while Morris has alot of potential. Henderson either needs to step up or find a home at a new position if he wants to avoid being cut. And that’s about all we have for depth.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
It’s no emergency, but it’s something that should be, and can be, addressed.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Raiders 9 and 7,min
August 26th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
RaiderLen..
of course, around this forum, FOOTBALL is amrican football, I call regular football for soccer in here..
August 26th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
TT…regarding quisten…That was a Shell “era” pick…Does he really fit with what Cable is trying to accomplish?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
I wouldn’t say ABOVE average TT. To be realistic our O-Line is probably in the bottom third of the NFL.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Since going undrafted, Thaddeus Coleman has now been released by Arizona and the Jets….but their OL coaches are Bill Callahan and Russ Grimm respectively, they are not looking for the same stuff as Cable, I know little about the guy but remmember he had some buzz prior to the Draft.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
But definitely improving
August 26th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
I would say our line is in the middle third of the league.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
OK…Then Yes…I’m certain that I’m correct in My assesment of the Raiders swapping a 2nd round pick for a pro bowl defensive back.
Eddie Royal might be good…Hasn’t played a single down in the NFL regular season yet.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Tommy
You like G Cameron Stephenson?.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Of course we don’t have access to what is happening in practice, but aside from the Walter nose break play, Super Mario seems to have played well. He certainly didn’t have as many botched plays as Harris did last week. I share your optimism for Harris though, as well as Gallery and Grove. I think McQ should be playing in front of Green right now.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Len, he’s not the prototype but he’s smart and athletic enough to be successful. His versatility is extremely valuable as well. I wouldn’t want him starting 16 games but I’m confident he can step into any of the spot on the OL and hold the fort for 6-8 games. He’s good enough to start but I’m not sure I’d want him as the starter from opening day on.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhBBu1Bytm8
Don’t know the competition, but not bad.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
I do Marley.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
If Green is not starters material, and Mc Q is good enough to start, then again I ask why he is not playing. It can’t be any worse than Green.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
With Marshall out week 1, Royal will be going up against Nnamdi, so I wouldn’t expect much in terms of stats out of Royal.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
TT…#180…Thank You Sir…versatility is good. Basicly He provides depth, but He’s not a difference maker.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
If he were to be a full time starter, it would have to be at guard, but that happens to be our strongest position along the line. He can still develope further, but I like him as our utility reserve right now.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
LATEST WAIVER WIRE NEWS:
1. Carolina Panhers sign WR Samie Parker. We lose out on him.
2. Giants release center Hercules Satele. He is the cousin of Dolphins Samson Satele. Those be two strong dudes!
3. Browns put WR Joe Jurevicius on PUP list. Can’t get him.
4. Browns also put WR Kevin Kasper on IR. He becomes unavailable.
I don’t know anything about this Kasper guy but wouldn’t it have been fun to hear Greg Papa make the following call…Ghost to the post!……Touchdown RRRaiderrrrrrs!!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
I do agree that being in the coliseum during a raiders game does bring alot of pure energy and it does not get much beter than that, But to be clad in all silver and black with your face painted and sitting in the endzone at mile high stadium watching the raiders play at the broncos, and getting verbally abused and having coors lite thrown at yoyu whuile the raiders are getting pumeled. well that is a true test of beuing a raider fan, I have seen lots of wins at the oakland coliseum, the la coliseum and back in oakland as well as traveled to alot of differetn places, but the true test of being a raider fan was a few years ago on dec 24 when we got our tails whipped in denver, and being the ionly guy in the endzone in silver nd black..now that I can brag about and say that is a true fan…
August 26th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Don’t bash Shell’s drafting …
Remember he chose Huff instead of Lienart. And also gave us Thomas Howard, McQ, and Chris Morris.
Looks like McQ will take over at G next year for CC?
Not too shaby at all.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
That was Davis’ drafting, Shell merely talked Davis out of taking Leinart, per davis that is…..
August 26th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
the truth of the matter is it doesnt not matter where you go see the tehm play or where you live..as longa s you ara raider fan you will always be in the elite group of true fans..The original raider nation…
August 26th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
I’m sure Walker heard that Boldin was headed to town, so he dipped out to to ponder his retirement thoughts but the guy is probably the next Favre when it comes to making that decision.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Jhill..love the T Howard Pick…Huff still gotta show. Morris…ehh
Howard could be Pro Bowl if Buddy ah er Rob Ryan would blitz this Guy.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Not like that phony Red Sox Nation… Go White SOX!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Leinart looks like a bust in the Cardinals’ system, but would be back in his own element in ours. Of course, had we taken Leinart, we never would have ended up with Russell, so I have two reasons to worship Shell, the first obviously for being one of the greatest linemen in NFL history.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
it’s an embarrassment to the embarrasment that is the NFL Pro Bowl that Thomas Howard, Kirk Morrison, and Nnamdi Asomugha were not all in the pro bowl last year. Nnamdi should already be credited with two pro bowl appearances and an All-Pro selection.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
JRUSS…way better the male model Leinert.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I’m glad you cut your Leinart excuse. Heck, if he can’t be in his element with Fitzgerald, Boldin, and James, then I know he would’ve been a bust with Porter, Jordan, and Whitted.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Steve Corkran on KNBR earlier this afternoon:
http://www.knbr.com/fitzBrooks/index.html
August 26th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
I’m beating a dead horse, but as much as I love Howard and Morrison, they act like little girls when it comes time to shed a block or make a tackle. They seem to be too worried about getting picks and forget what their real job is. Where’s Oakglen to back me up?
August 26th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
I would think having to sit next to Al Davis in the owners box as the Raiders lost game #14 in 2006 would take some courage.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
TT #196 on Nnamdy 100% agreed. Morrison ehh… Howard mabey. This Year for 2 of the 3. Nnamdi and Howard.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Morrison should have gone the last two years.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
You may be right TT, but seeing as he is the middle backer on one of the league’s worst run defenses, you can’t fault the voters for not putting him in.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Nnamdi on the other hand has been screwed 2 years in a row
August 26th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
OG may not be here, but I’ll back you up on that one. Even Kiffin says the same thing about Howard in that if he starts to attack the line of scrimmage in the run game, THEN he would be a pro bowler.
Who do you think he is talking about when he says he’s concerned about the run defense? My bet is Morrison. Who else could it be.
Why do you defend this guy so much TT? He was work to do against the run, CLEARLY!
August 26th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
I’d love to go to KC once to see a Raider game.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
He doesn’t need any “defending” he’s proven he has the ability to do that himself, at an elite level.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Morrison & Howard in pro bowl? LB’s on the worst run D in league (by avg) DO NOT deserve a pro bowl.
Lechler, Asomough and I thought Carlisle was a solid guy who’ll never get credit for it.
Heck ONeal deserved a pro bowl more than the LB’s.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Al Davis interviewed after the game saturday night: “Now that I think about it, I believe it was Art who wanted to draft that Leinart kid. Fortunately, I was able to talk him out of it.”
August 26th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Hmm… I don’t know what games you’re watching TT. He is an incredible athlete and I’m sure will develop into one of the league’s elite backers, but has yet to prove he can make a difference in run support.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
We spend months going over this already but, what the hell…..
Other than last year, in which our two best defensive lineman were injured, we’ve had a solid run defense, by average, Morrison’s entire career.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Solid relative to what?
August 26th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
“Pro Bowl? Pro Bowl? Who’s talking about the pro bowl? How about stopping the run for once? Pro Bowl.”
- not Jim Mora on Howard & Morrison
August 26th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Tommy Trojan Says:
August 26th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
We spend months going over this already but, what the hell…..
Other than last year, in which our two best defensive lineman were injured, we’ve had a solid run defense, by average, Morrison’s entire career.
Really?????????????????? I don’t remember that
August 26th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
We’ve had an average to good run defense Morrison’s entire career, outside of last year. We spend days and days discussing this in draft debates.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Not true TT.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
where we ever in the top 15 in run defense?
August 26th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Look at the per carry averages. They’ve all been solid outside of last year, in which our DL was in shambles.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
You can dig through the stats again, but I’ve already done enough of it. If you wanna pass the test, show up to class. And if you don’t know the answer then don’t raise your hand.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
WALKER ON INJURED LIST W/ BUM KNEE!
http://www.raidernationstation.com
I thought this might not be fore real but its listed here w/ that new FB lawson guy!
what the what!!!
Boldin please…
August 26th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Wow, I really came off like an arrogant asshole in that statement?
Computers are very effective, arn’t they?
August 26th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
2007 - 4.6 yards per carry allowed (last by avg 31st overall)
2006 - 4.0 (25th overall)
2005 - 4.0 (25th overall)
hmmm. Since Morrison got here we…what?
August 26th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
2007 - 145.9 yd/gm 31rk
2006 - 134 yd/gm 25rk
2005 - 128.1 yd/gm 25rk
August 26th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Tommy
You and Paul Zimmerman are two of the few people that swear by Morrison.
“Dr. Z” selects his All-Pro team every year after watching tape on many players and Morrison has been on his list the last 2 years, he didn´t make it, but he always gets praised for his performance.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
#25 in Rushing Def in 2006
August 26th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
I’m not seeing anything about Walker on any other sites Nnamdi.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
If 25 in a league of 32 is average or above… I wish you were my teacher in school.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
I’m confused.
It says updated last in Feb. 2008.
But I mean Luke Lawton Drew Carter and O’Neal are on there…
Is this fo’ real?
How come only this guys got the story?
won’t let me post the damn link but its on yahoo sports under raiders inujuries plain as day…
August 26th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
4.0 was the league average. Not in terms of ranking, in terms of statistical average. Multiplying the average by the highest carry total will give you a pretty bad per game total. The number of carries has more to do with offensive ineptitude than defensive.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
That’s probably just for fantasy and is just because of Walker’s history. Thats my guess anyway.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
The per yd avg is not what I’m looking at. I’m looking at the 3 to 4 BIG runs that we give up every single game. I look at him taking bad angles on a lot of plays, which opens up huge cutback lanes. 2006 didn’t count as teams didn’t even try and run an offense against us once they got a lead. Pass defense, and run defense stats were skewed. And last year was horrible, plain and simple. Blame it on the Dline being injured if you want. Dude was bad as far as reads go.
I’m not giving up on the guy, but I haven’t been impressed so far this preseason with his run defense.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
That Walker bit sounds like a guess. He’s not there + He had knee surgeries before so…
No indication they know anything.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Also, in 2006, our 4.0 average was 11th in run defense, not 25th.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
I see that link posted a lot in here, someone is trying to get some hits I guess.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Gotta say, it made me look….
August 26th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
I like the yd/game stat better. That’s cut and dry. because alot teams were able to run the ball down our throats at the end of the game when our defense couldn’t hold a lead or give our offense a chance to win.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
I’ll attribute it to the defensive injuries because last year was the anomally. that would be the logical area to attribute it to.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
No… if anything, 2006 was the anomally. With an offense that bad, our stats shouldn’t have even been recorded in the history books.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Yards per game is not accurate because it’s influenced by the number of carries, which is in turn influenced by own own offensive success. If the team has a decent per carry average, that means they’re successful defending the run when run against. I high game total usually means a lot of carries.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
exactly. And teams have a high carry number against the Raiders because they can’t stop the run.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Run defense
2007-32nd
2006-11th
2005-15th
2004-6th
2003-25th
August 26th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
allows way too many big runs on cutbacks due to him being outta position …
August 26th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Believe me TT… I pray you are right. And honestly if you were a fan of any other team I would be arguing the same points you are. But Morrison and Howard have not impressed me yet against the run. They just don’t seem to enjoy contact.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
TT - You said our run D has been average to good since Morrison got here. That is not true by your statements.
You said 4.0 is average.
Since 4.0 is the BEST we’ve been, BY YOUR ANALYSIS, we have been average to bad, not average to good.
Average to bad run D’s don’t sent MLB’s to the pro bowl.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
No, teams have a high carry average because they don’t have to score in order to win. Our offense has been inept for years so teams win by slowly running the ball and winning a close game with a low score. If our per carry average is good, that means our defense is good at stopping the run when run on.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
The biggest mistake u could make would be to base any defensive assesments on what happened in 2006.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
yes but as COW pointed out, it doesn’t take into account the devistation of the 30+ yd TD runs at inoppurtune times. That’s devastating.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
I’m basing my opinions off of assesments of the last 5 years.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
The bigger problem with Howard and Morison is they make most of their big plays early in the game. When the game is on the line in the 4th, they vanish.
That is a problem with light fast guys. Teams can wear them out. Appearantly they wear out easily since the offense won TOP last year and handed them TEN 4th quarter leads. They blew 6 of them.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
except for the 3 or 4 big runs given up each game, we are pretty good against the run.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Oh… I thought you meant just since Morrison has been here.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
For years people have attributed those 30+ yard runs to Stu’s wiffs, are you telling me you’ve found a new scapegoat and Wilson will not solve that problem? Because, if so, we may be truelly doomed……..
August 26th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
20 Oakland Raiders 16 20.8 332 542 33.9 2,144 4.0 134.0 15 58 107 19.7 10 2 8
2006, #20 yds per carry 4.0
August 26th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Hahaha… Stu’s whiffs definitely didn’t help. Did you see Howard on Arrington’s long run on Sat.? He was completely overpursuing and was promptly erased from the play. In case you didn’t see the play, Howard watched Arrington score as he rolled along the sidelines due to a pancake.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
The 30ydrs will now be 7 or 8 ydrs b/c of Wilson , but they should be 2 or 3 ydrs if Morrison would just keep his discipline.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
# Tommy Trojan Says:
August 26th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Run defense
2007-32nd
2006-11th
2005-15th
2004-6th
2003-25th
____________________________________________________
avg puts us in the top of the 2nd half.. ~18th
August 26th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
TT - Any teasm that relies on its Safeties to stop the run must have poor LB’ers.
Stu was playing 15 yards off the ball. In order for him to even have a chance to whiff the front 7 had to have already blew it.
Yahoo sports has Walker listed as Probable (knee)
August 26th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Our run defense will be better because we will take the ball away from the opposing offense. Then we will use our effective run game to control TOP.
The run defense won’t be this year’s problem. Scoring points will. I don’t doubt that we can control the clock, but I have serious concerns about putting points on the board early to allow us to control the clock thereafter.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
I believe our run D will be better because Sapp isn’t here anymore..
August 26th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Better meaning 20th instead of last? 15th again?
How do we get to top 5?