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	<title>Comments on: the path to transit equity rolls both ways</title>
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	<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/</link>
	<description>Getting around the Bay Area with Denis Cuff and the Queen of the Road</description>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-466</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/#comment-466</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Buses are, alas, incapable of safely doing the speeds that rail can do (80+ mph transbay, with no technical reason it can&#039;t be substantially faster than that), and buses aren&#039;t particularly cheap to operate. A train&#039;s equivalent in buses requires several drivers, several engines, several sets of tires, and so forth, where a train has one driver (or none) and a mechanical platform that will outlast several buses. So paving a rail ROW to run buses isn&#039;t a win; buses are better in cases where there isn&#039;t a ROW in place. Where you have a dedicated right of way, rail can (and should) be faster than driving. Ultimately, transit will never become the de facto way to get around until it becomes the fastest way. A good start would be to quit building slow systems!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buses are, alas, incapable of safely doing the speeds that rail can do (80+ mph transbay, with no technical reason it can&#8217;t be substantially faster than that), and buses aren&#8217;t particularly cheap to operate. A train&#8217;s equivalent in buses requires several drivers, several engines, several sets of tires, and so forth, where a train has one driver (or none) and a mechanical platform that will outlast several buses. So paving a rail ROW to run buses isn&#8217;t a win; buses are better in cases where there isn&#8217;t a ROW in place. Where you have a dedicated right of way, rail can (and should) be faster than driving. Ultimately, transit will never become the de facto way to get around until it becomes the fastest way. A good start would be to quit building slow systems!</p>
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		<title>By: cruiser</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-465</link>
		<dc:creator>cruiser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/#comment-465</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are two major issues that affect all transit systems to some degree:

1)  Homeowners - fearful for their property values - have relegated noisy, smoky, high-occupancy transit to areas away from their residences.  The result is that users must either drive or take other public transit to connect.

2)  Systems do not really interconnect.  Stations are built too far apart for convenience and often lack interconnecting transit, ticketing is by agency rather than universal, schedules are are not well coordinated.  Part of this, I&#039;m sure, comes from politicians who do not wat &quot;their&quot; users to clog up &quot;our&quot; transit system.

Finally, with regard to Caltrain fatalities, I produced several videos of rail systems of the Bay area and I can tell you that it is VERY difficult to hear a train approaching at 50-60 miles per hour, even if the horn is blowing.  One simply may not be aware of the approaching train until it is right on top of them.  And it is hard to judge the speed of a train when facing it headon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two major issues that affect all transit systems to some degree:</p>
<p>1)  Homeowners &#8211; fearful for their property values &#8211; have relegated noisy, smoky, high-occupancy transit to areas away from their residences.  The result is that users must either drive or take other public transit to connect.</p>
<p>2)  Systems do not really interconnect.  Stations are built too far apart for convenience and often lack interconnecting transit, ticketing is by agency rather than universal, schedules are are not well coordinated.  Part of this, I&#8217;m sure, comes from politicians who do not wat &#8220;their&#8221; users to clog up &#8220;our&#8221; transit system.</p>
<p>Finally, with regard to Caltrain fatalities, I produced several videos of rail systems of the Bay area and I can tell you that it is VERY difficult to hear a train approaching at 50-60 miles per hour, even if the horn is blowing.  One simply may not be aware of the approaching train until it is right on top of them.  And it is hard to judge the speed of a train when facing it headon.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce De Benedictis</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-464</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce De Benedictis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/#comment-464</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rail was the only option for a system with long tunnels at the BART was buiilt. New vehicles that can run with electricity or other fuel are now possible with the development of hybrid technologies. But that is a different type of hybrid!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rail was the only option for a system with long tunnels at the BART was buiilt. New vehicles that can run with electricity or other fuel are now possible with the development of hybrid technologies. But that is a different type of hybrid!</p>
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		<title>By: South Bay Resident</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-463</link>
		<dc:creator>South Bay Resident</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jan 2007 00:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/#comment-463</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that heavy rail was the right solution in the case of the Transbay tube because there is so much demand for transit along market street that meeting it with buses would be nearly impossible, although you could get similar performance to the transbay tube by running lots of buses from a variety of east bay locations to a variety of SF locations.  But that&#039;s beside my main point.

I don&#039;t really see much use for vehicles such as this.  It is nearly always the case that you can accomplish the same thing just as well simply using buses.  In California (and pretty much everywhere else), the minimum rail ROW is 17 feet wide except on bridges and tunnels where it can be as narrow as 16 feet and at station platforms where it could be only as little as 15 feet*.  17 feet is more than wide enough to allow a bus to operate at high speed (a typical freeway lane is 12 feet wide, although many in the bay area are only 11 feet due to squeezing the freeway to allow HOV lanes.  In fact, a typical rail ROW is so wide that you can provide a lane plus a shoulder.  Further, since it is typically more expensive to maintain a railroad than a road and because specialized convertible equipment drives up costs, it would almost certainly be  cheaper to simply  pave over the ROW and operate buses on it.

A busway would be an excellent use  of the ROW in Marin, and for that matter for the Caltrain ROW.  It would have been nice if as part of planning Caltrain&#039;s ambitious upgrades (electrification, switching to EMUs) the powers that be would have considered replacing it with a busway, which might provide better capacity at a lower cost and would offer the possibility of running other kinds of service along the route, such as buses that run part of their routes on the busway and go off the busway at either end.


* low platform stations can be very close to the rails, but are limited to 8&quot; high, so they don&#039;t pose much of an obstacle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that heavy rail was the right solution in the case of the Transbay tube because there is so much demand for transit along market street that meeting it with buses would be nearly impossible, although you could get similar performance to the transbay tube by running lots of buses from a variety of east bay locations to a variety of SF locations.  But that&#8217;s beside my main point.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really see much use for vehicles such as this.  It is nearly always the case that you can accomplish the same thing just as well simply using buses.  In California (and pretty much everywhere else), the minimum rail ROW is 17 feet wide except on bridges and tunnels where it can be as narrow as 16 feet and at station platforms where it could be only as little as 15 feet*.  17 feet is more than wide enough to allow a bus to operate at high speed (a typical freeway lane is 12 feet wide, although many in the bay area are only 11 feet due to squeezing the freeway to allow HOV lanes.  In fact, a typical rail ROW is so wide that you can provide a lane plus a shoulder.  Further, since it is typically more expensive to maintain a railroad than a road and because specialized convertible equipment drives up costs, it would almost certainly be  cheaper to simply  pave over the ROW and operate buses on it.</p>
<p>A busway would be an excellent use  of the ROW in Marin, and for that matter for the Caltrain ROW.  It would have been nice if as part of planning Caltrain&#8217;s ambitious upgrades (electrification, switching to EMUs) the powers that be would have considered replacing it with a busway, which might provide better capacity at a lower cost and would offer the possibility of running other kinds of service along the route, such as buses that run part of their routes on the busway and go off the busway at either end.</p>
<p>* low platform stations can be very close to the rails, but are limited to 8&#8243; high, so they don&#8217;t pose much of an obstacle.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce De Benedictis</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-462</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce De Benedictis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/#comment-462</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As you say, BART&#039;s capacity is about the same as that of buses on a single lane: A bus every 10 seconds is 360 buses per hour, and every 5 seconds (still less than highway engineers&#039; 3 second headways), is 720 buses per hour. The traditional BART station would not be the best way of treating such a system, but they could be rebuilt for the purpose. My point was so much not about increasing capacity however, but about making the system better.

The place where this would be especially useful is reusing old railway right-of-ways, including tunnels, bridges and other constrictions, such as in Marin county. A mostly single lane could still be useful, as its capacity in the commute direction could match the return trips counter-commute capacity on ordinary roads.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you say, BART&#8217;s capacity is about the same as that of buses on a single lane: A bus every 10 seconds is 360 buses per hour, and every 5 seconds (still less than highway engineers&#8217; 3 second headways), is 720 buses per hour. The traditional BART station would not be the best way of treating such a system, but they could be rebuilt for the purpose. My point was so much not about increasing capacity however, but about making the system better.</p>
<p>The place where this would be especially useful is reusing old railway right-of-ways, including tunnels, bridges and other constrictions, such as in Marin county. A mostly single lane could still be useful, as its capacity in the commute direction could match the return trips counter-commute capacity on ordinary roads.</p>
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		<title>By: South Bay Resident</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-461</link>
		<dc:creator>South Bay Resident</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/#comment-461</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bruce,

I think that one of the biggest fundamental problems with BART is lack of capacity through the transbay tube.  BART can only run 30 trains per hour per direction* through  the tube, which limits the frequency of the entire system.  Building hybrid road/rail buses would only make the problem worse because of long station dwell times.  If you&#039;re using lots of individual vehicles then buses do the job better because it is easier to load/unload them in parallel, which is very difficult with trains.

My suggestion for encouraging transit use between the inner east bay and SF is to improve AC transit&#039;s service, perhaps including better access to the HOV lanes on the Oakland side of the bay.  Also adding bus ramps to the SF side of the bay bridge would be helpful.  The capacity is there.  The exclusive bus lane in the Lincoln tunnel (in NYC) carries as many people during the peak commute hour as BART.  As for improving BART, I think that the best thing you could do there is add an extra set (or two) of doors per car, which would reduce station dwell times and make improved signaling useful.

*actually, they don&#039;t quite manage this capacity, but they&#039;re close.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce,</p>
<p>I think that one of the biggest fundamental problems with BART is lack of capacity through the transbay tube.  BART can only run 30 trains per hour per direction* through  the tube, which limits the frequency of the entire system.  Building hybrid road/rail buses would only make the problem worse because of long station dwell times.  If you&#8217;re using lots of individual vehicles then buses do the job better because it is easier to load/unload them in parallel, which is very difficult with trains.</p>
<p>My suggestion for encouraging transit use between the inner east bay and SF is to improve AC transit&#8217;s service, perhaps including better access to the HOV lanes on the Oakland side of the bay.  Also adding bus ramps to the SF side of the bay bridge would be helpful.  The capacity is there.  The exclusive bus lane in the Lincoln tunnel (in NYC) carries as many people during the peak commute hour as BART.  As for improving BART, I think that the best thing you could do there is add an extra set (or two) of doors per car, which would reduce station dwell times and make improved signaling useful.</p>
<p>*actually, they don&#8217;t quite manage this capacity, but they&#8217;re close.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce De Benedictis</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-460</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce De Benedictis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/#comment-460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One of the options that was presented in the early stages of planning for the Berkeley/East Oakland Bus Rapid Transit was the bus-train, essentially a bus with a retractible pin that would work like a slot car if you needed a narrow right-of-way or to connect vehicles together into a train, but could operate as a bus on the streets. Such a system would be cheaper to build and maintain than a conventional rail system, and would be more flexible in its operation. Imagine how much better BART would be if it ran bus-trains, and instead of all the cars going from San Francisco to Richmond, some of them would separate in Oakland, Berkeley, Albany and El Cerrito and take you within walking distance of your home.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the options that was presented in the early stages of planning for the Berkeley/East Oakland Bus Rapid Transit was the bus-train, essentially a bus with a retractible pin that would work like a slot car if you needed a narrow right-of-way or to connect vehicles together into a train, but could operate as a bus on the streets. Such a system would be cheaper to build and maintain than a conventional rail system, and would be more flexible in its operation. Imagine how much better BART would be if it ran bus-trains, and instead of all the cars going from San Francisco to Richmond, some of them would separate in Oakland, Berkeley, Albany and El Cerrito and take you within walking distance of your home.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Priven</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/comment-page-1/#comment-459</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Priven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/01/22/the-path-to-transit-equity-rolls-both-ways/#comment-459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Caltrain is running into regulatory issues with the Federal Railroad Administration -- they want to use cars that don&#039;t meet their standards, but which will speed up traffic considerably. Won&#039;t this run into the same kind of problems?

It seems to me that while there may be places this is a good idea -- places where we already have a rail right of way and it&#039;s cheaper to do this than to build a busway -- nearly all the advantage of this would be had from building a busway, which can use any kind of bus and is cheaper to build and maintain.

People get confused. Rail transit does have a somewhat smoother ride than bus transit, and where it&#039;s needed rail has a much higher capacity per operator, but the main advantage of rail isn&#039;t really about tracks at all, but just about the dedicated lane that rails usually have to themselves. We can build those for buses too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caltrain is running into regulatory issues with the Federal Railroad Administration &#8212; they want to use cars that don&#8217;t meet their standards, but which will speed up traffic considerably. Won&#8217;t this run into the same kind of problems?</p>
<p>It seems to me that while there may be places this is a good idea &#8212; places where we already have a rail right of way and it&#8217;s cheaper to do this than to build a busway &#8212; nearly all the advantage of this would be had from building a busway, which can use any kind of bus and is cheaper to build and maintain.</p>
<p>People get confused. Rail transit does have a somewhat smoother ride than bus transit, and where it&#8217;s needed rail has a much higher capacity per operator, but the main advantage of rail isn&#8217;t really about tracks at all, but just about the dedicated lane that rails usually have to themselves. We can build those for buses too.</p>
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