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	<title>Comments on: Tracy to Livermore in five minutes</title>
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	<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/</link>
	<description>Getting around the Bay Area with Denis Cuff and the Queen of the Road</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Krueger</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2082</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Krueger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2082</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The idea of high-speed rail &quot;stopping at Livermore&quot; and forcing passengers to transfer to BART or ACE has to be one of the worst ideas I have heard come out of the whole sorry discussion of the Bay Area high-speed rail alignment.  The fact that anyone is even discussing such a scenario betrays a real lack of knowledge of how conventional high-speed rail works.

I&#039;m no expert myself, but anyone who has ridden the European high-speed rail system knows that the trains are able to travel on conventional tracks, which is almost always the case when they approach major cities.  That&#039;s the beauty of using conventional rail technology (steel wheels on standard-gauge track, with overhead electric power) instead of an exotic technology like magnetic levitation or even a conventional but non-standard technology like BART (non-standard-gauge track and third-rail power).  Existing lines like ACE and the Capitol Corridor could be upgraded to accommodate high-speed trains at conventional speeds at a tiny fraction of the cost of building dedicated high-speed lines parallel to the conventional ones.  Even though the high-speed trains would have to slow down to use the conventional tracks, the full trip would still be much faster than it would be if passengers were forced to transfer.

Of course, once the initial connection is made, it&#039;s always possible to go back and do track upgrades and add additional tracks.  That&#039;s one of the reasons European high-speed rail has been so successful: the track network has been expanded and upgraded incrementally, as ridership and demand grows.  If European politicians had assumed that the entire system had to be built at once, from scratch, with all-new tracks and rights of way, it probably never would have been built at all.

The other mistaken assumption floating around is that cities along the alignment would only benefit from the high-speed trains themselves.  This is often used as an argument against the Altamont Pass alignment: &quot;Are commuters from Tracy really going to pay to take a high-speed train to work in San Francisco?&quot;  They won&#039;t have to.  The upgrades to the line to accommodate high-speed rail will make it possible to run faster, quieter, more frequent electric commuter trains along the same alignment.  Some of these trains can be locals that make all stops, and some can run express.  All of this can be in addition to the the long-distance high-speed service itself, which would be more expensive, less frequent, and would make the fewest stops of all.  All of the layered additional service that would be possible along an electrified, upgraded right of way is what makes the Altamont route so much more cost-effective than Pacheco.

By contrast, the Pacheco route runs through the middle of nowhere, so there would not be nearly enough local riders to make full use of the expensive infrastructure in the corridor.  People argue that development along the Pacheco alignment could eventually bring more local riders, but why drive development into largely empty areas instead of intensifying existing development along the already-developed Altamont corridor?  Viewed in light of its recently announced commitment to fight sprawl, supporting Pacheco (or even &quot;Pacheco first,&quot; for anyone who actually believes that the &quot;dual alignment&quot; approach is anything more than a cynical political ploy) is height of hypocrisy for the MTC.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea of high-speed rail &#8220;stopping at Livermore&#8221; and forcing passengers to transfer to BART or ACE has to be one of the worst ideas I have heard come out of the whole sorry discussion of the Bay Area high-speed rail alignment.  The fact that anyone is even discussing such a scenario betrays a real lack of knowledge of how conventional high-speed rail works.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no expert myself, but anyone who has ridden the European high-speed rail system knows that the trains are able to travel on conventional tracks, which is almost always the case when they approach major cities.  That&#8217;s the beauty of using conventional rail technology (steel wheels on standard-gauge track, with overhead electric power) instead of an exotic technology like magnetic levitation or even a conventional but non-standard technology like BART (non-standard-gauge track and third-rail power).  Existing lines like ACE and the Capitol Corridor could be upgraded to accommodate high-speed trains at conventional speeds at a tiny fraction of the cost of building dedicated high-speed lines parallel to the conventional ones.  Even though the high-speed trains would have to slow down to use the conventional tracks, the full trip would still be much faster than it would be if passengers were forced to transfer.</p>
<p>Of course, once the initial connection is made, it&#8217;s always possible to go back and do track upgrades and add additional tracks.  That&#8217;s one of the reasons European high-speed rail has been so successful: the track network has been expanded and upgraded incrementally, as ridership and demand grows.  If European politicians had assumed that the entire system had to be built at once, from scratch, with all-new tracks and rights of way, it probably never would have been built at all.</p>
<p>The other mistaken assumption floating around is that cities along the alignment would only benefit from the high-speed trains themselves.  This is often used as an argument against the Altamont Pass alignment: &#8220;Are commuters from Tracy really going to pay to take a high-speed train to work in San Francisco?&#8221;  They won&#8217;t have to.  The upgrades to the line to accommodate high-speed rail will make it possible to run faster, quieter, more frequent electric commuter trains along the same alignment.  Some of these trains can be locals that make all stops, and some can run express.  All of this can be in addition to the the long-distance high-speed service itself, which would be more expensive, less frequent, and would make the fewest stops of all.  All of the layered additional service that would be possible along an electrified, upgraded right of way is what makes the Altamont route so much more cost-effective than Pacheco.</p>
<p>By contrast, the Pacheco route runs through the middle of nowhere, so there would not be nearly enough local riders to make full use of the expensive infrastructure in the corridor.  People argue that development along the Pacheco alignment could eventually bring more local riders, but why drive development into largely empty areas instead of intensifying existing development along the already-developed Altamont corridor?  Viewed in light of its recently announced commitment to fight sprawl, supporting Pacheco (or even &#8220;Pacheco first,&#8221; for anyone who actually believes that the &#8220;dual alignment&#8221; approach is anything more than a cynical political ploy) is height of hypocrisy for the MTC.</p>
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		<title>By: Reedman</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2081</link>
		<dc:creator>Reedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2081</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The MTC has a slide in their Powerpoint presentation for
the October 12 meeting which tries to explain their thinking. I don&#039;t think
it does very well because what they want, and the vocabulary they use,
is both bureaucratic and pie-in-the-sky. They want Altamont to be part of a &quot;regional&quot;
(Northern California) rail network, but they want it to &quot;HSR ready&quot; and
they want HSR bonds to pay for it, and they want the west-from-Livermore
part built first (Phase One). They then describe Pacheco as the link to Southern California,
and put it into Phase Two, while the Altamont piece from Livermore east to
Manteca is Phase Three.
Looking at their map, there is a lot of duplicated services and corridors
with both Regional and Statewide systems - very expensive.
reference:
http://apps.mtc.ca.gov/meeting_packet_documents/agenda_929/HSR_10-12-07_PC_v.2.ppt]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The MTC has a slide in their Powerpoint presentation for<br />
the October 12 meeting which tries to explain their thinking. I don&#8217;t think<br />
it does very well because what they want, and the vocabulary they use,<br />
is both bureaucratic and pie-in-the-sky. They want Altamont to be part of a &#8220;regional&#8221;<br />
(Northern California) rail network, but they want it to &#8220;HSR ready&#8221; and<br />
they want HSR bonds to pay for it, and they want the west-from-Livermore<br />
part built first (Phase One). They then describe Pacheco as the link to Southern California,<br />
and put it into Phase Two, while the Altamont piece from Livermore east to<br />
Manteca is Phase Three.<br />
Looking at their map, there is a lot of duplicated services and corridors<br />
with both Regional and Statewide systems &#8211; very expensive.<br />
reference:<br />
<a href="http://apps.mtc.ca.gov/meeting_packet_documents/agenda_929/HSR_10-12-07_PC_v.2.ppt" rel="nofollow">http://apps.mtc.ca.gov/meeting_packet_documents/agenda_929/HSR_10-12-07_PC_v.2.ppt</a></p>
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		<title>By: Inside Bay Area &#62; The Capricious Commuter &#62; hopeless? try the Middle East</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2092</link>
		<dc:creator>Inside Bay Area &#62; The Capricious Commuter &#62; hopeless? try the Middle East</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2092</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] when I said high-speed rail could be all things to all people, I wasn&#8217;t [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] when I said high-speed rail could be all things to all people, I wasn&#8217;t [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Capricious Commuter</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2076</link>
		<dc:creator>Capricious Commuter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2076</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reedman, they didn&#039;t endorse both. They endorsed Pacheco, with a suggestion for a second line coming through the Altamont Pass and stopping at Livermore. It will be a miracle if anything gets built, let alone bonus spur that dead-end in some town few people outside the Bay Area or nuclear weapons circles have heard of.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reedman, they didn&#8217;t endorse both. They endorsed Pacheco, with a suggestion for a second line coming through the Altamont Pass and stopping at Livermore. It will be a miracle if anything gets built, let alone bonus spur that dead-end in some town few people outside the Bay Area or nuclear weapons circles have heard of.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Reedman</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2069</link>
		<dc:creator>Reedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At today&#039;s (Oct 24, 2007) MTC meeting, the MTC formally
endorsed BOTH the Altamont and Pacheco routes for bringing
high speed rail to the Bay Area. Picking one route or the other
would be politically too difficult and/or unpopular ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At today&#8217;s (Oct 24, 2007) MTC meeting, the MTC formally<br />
endorsed BOTH the Altamont and Pacheco routes for bringing<br />
high speed rail to the Bay Area. Picking one route or the other<br />
would be politically too difficult and/or unpopular &#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Guy Span</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2091</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Span</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:03:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It might be interesting to look at another story, “Big Fat Lies” that describes how local engineering projects get accomplished, and then go way over budget. It’s a bit cynical, but the facts were researched.

Oddly enough, BART now wants another $12 billion or so to do what they already did. Here’s the link:

http://www.baycrossings.com/dispnews.asp?id=399]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It might be interesting to look at another story, “Big Fat Lies” that describes how local engineering projects get accomplished, and then go way over budget. It’s a bit cynical, but the facts were researched.</p>
<p>Oddly enough, BART now wants another $12 billion or so to do what they already did. Here’s the link:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.baycrossings.com/dispnews.asp?id=399" rel="nofollow">http://www.baycrossings.com/dispnews.asp?id=399</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: TrainFanButFrequentFlyer</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2090</link>
		<dc:creator>TrainFanButFrequentFlyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 00:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When will someone in the media write a story about how the &quot;SF-LA in 2:30&quot; line is a fraud?  There are no high-speed rail routes in the world that are more than 200 miles and average more than 150mph, let alone one between two built-up cities that are ringed by mountains.  Being very generous with the proposed routes makes SF-LA around 400 track miles.  Paris-Lyon (about 220 miles) is probably the best example we have: non-stop, flat, lots of dedicated TGV track.  This trip takes just about 2 hours.  Yes, you get to go 180mph in the middle ... but average speed is not at all the same as top speed.  It seems everytone thinks of the distance between SF and LA as being the air mileage of ~330 miles and the top speed of TGV being ~200mph and comes up with two and a half hours.  If it takes until after we spend $20B for the mayors of each city on opening day to find that this is a 4+ hour trip, don&#039;t say I didn&#039;t tell you so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When will someone in the media write a story about how the &#8220;SF-LA in 2:30&#8243; line is a fraud?  There are no high-speed rail routes in the world that are more than 200 miles and average more than 150mph, let alone one between two built-up cities that are ringed by mountains.  Being very generous with the proposed routes makes SF-LA around 400 track miles.  Paris-Lyon (about 220 miles) is probably the best example we have: non-stop, flat, lots of dedicated TGV track.  This trip takes just about 2 hours.  Yes, you get to go 180mph in the middle &#8230; but average speed is not at all the same as top speed.  It seems everytone thinks of the distance between SF and LA as being the air mileage of ~330 miles and the top speed of TGV being ~200mph and comes up with two and a half hours.  If it takes until after we spend $20B for the mayors of each city on opening day to find that this is a 4+ hour trip, don&#8217;t say I didn&#8217;t tell you so.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeTeeVee</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2071</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeTeeVee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 23:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2071</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The first phase of HSR would serve a lot more than just three cities.  It&#039;s not just an endpoint-to-endpoint system.

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/implementation/ImplementationPlan.pdf

&quot;The High-Speed Passenger Train Bond Act (SB 1865/SB1169) directs that the first portion of the high-speed train system to be funded will be San Francisco to Los Angeles. Even along that route there may be regional segments that can be opened before construction is complete on the entire north-south line.&quot;

For a lot of people, the nearest HSR station is going to be closer than the nearest airport.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first phase of HSR would serve a lot more than just three cities.  It&#8217;s not just an endpoint-to-endpoint system.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/implementation/ImplementationPlan.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/implementation/ImplementationPlan.pdf</a></p>
<p>&#8220;The High-Speed Passenger Train Bond Act (SB 1865/SB1169) directs that the first portion of the high-speed train system to be funded will be San Francisco to Los Angeles. Even along that route there may be regional segments that can be opened before construction is complete on the entire north-south line.&#8221;</p>
<p>For a lot of people, the nearest HSR station is going to be closer than the nearest airport.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Capricious Commuter</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2073</link>
		<dc:creator>Capricious Commuter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reedman, I think you have a good point about Californians supporting HSR. The problem is, all-or-nothing propositions rarely wind up in the &quot;all&quot; basket.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reedman, I think you have a good point about Californians supporting HSR. The problem is, all-or-nothing propositions rarely wind up in the &#8220;all&#8221; basket.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Reedman</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/comment-page-1/#comment-2074</link>
		<dc:creator>Reedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2007/09/27/tracy-to-livermore-in-five-minutes/#comment-2074</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think there is a way politically to build a smaller, &#039;starter&#039;
system connecting the three largest cities (San Diego, LA, San Jose). The other
parts of the state would never vote for this, and their legislators wouldn&#039;t
allow it to happen. Part of the problem with a project like CASHR is that to get
it approved, its an all-or-nothing proposition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think there is a way politically to build a smaller, &#8216;starter&#8217;<br />
system connecting the three largest cities (San Diego, LA, San Jose). The other<br />
parts of the state would never vote for this, and their legislators wouldn&#8217;t<br />
allow it to happen. Part of the problem with a project like CASHR is that to get<br />
it approved, its an all-or-nothing proposition.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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