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	<title>Comments on: train in vain</title>
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	<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/</link>
	<description>Getting around the Bay Area with Denis Cuff and the Queen of the Road</description>
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		<title>By: murphstahoe</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3124</link>
		<dc:creator>murphstahoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[This morning the Golden Gate Transit #72 from Santa Rosa at 5:48 AM had 3 empty seats. When I started riding it this bus was less than half full. I started riding on Monday Mornings FOUR MONTHS AGO. And this is a BUS - not a train which is seen as much more &quot;seemly&quot; transit. I predict that unless something changes quickly the SMART rail in Marin/Sonoma will win in a landslide, and be able to get Larkspur to stop being so petulant and let the train run right to the ferry building.

Now, that train will require feeder lines - the current capacity problem as I see it for the GG Transit SR-&gt;SF lines is not going to be the number of seats on the bus. The problem is the available parking at the 3 stops (Piner, SR P&amp;R, RP P&amp;R) that have all day parking. The adjustment being made right now is &quot;No parking, I guess I&#039;ll just drive&quot;. At $5, $6 per gallon those drivers will adjust further.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This morning the Golden Gate Transit #72 from Santa Rosa at 5:48 AM had 3 empty seats. When I started riding it this bus was less than half full. I started riding on Monday Mornings FOUR MONTHS AGO. And this is a BUS &#8211; not a train which is seen as much more &#8220;seemly&#8221; transit. I predict that unless something changes quickly the SMART rail in Marin/Sonoma will win in a landslide, and be able to get Larkspur to stop being so petulant and let the train run right to the ferry building.</p>
<p>Now, that train will require feeder lines &#8211; the current capacity problem as I see it for the GG Transit SR-&gt;SF lines is not going to be the number of seats on the bus. The problem is the available parking at the 3 stops (Piner, SR P&amp;R, RP P&amp;R) that have all day parking. The adjustment being made right now is &#8220;No parking, I guess I&#8217;ll just drive&#8221;. At $5, $6 per gallon those drivers will adjust further.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeD</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3117</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/#comment-3117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Those all sound like things I thought as I read the CATO article (or should have thought).

Additionally, I think CATO unintentionally lays the ground work for a stronger argument for electric-powered transit than they explicitly state.  CATO argues that locking in current levels of energy and carbon intensity in long-lived trains sacrifices the opportunity to embrace more efficient technology in the future.  I wouldn&#039;t be shocked if, over the next few decades, the energy and carbon intensity of electric energy drops at a faster rate than energy and carbon intensity drops for autos.  If one accepts this, it means electric trains are preferable to fuel-efficient cars (and even if it is not true, the opportunity for advances in electric generation, even if at a slower rate than autos, argues for electric transit rather than diesel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those all sound like things I thought as I read the CATO article (or should have thought).</p>
<p>Additionally, I think CATO unintentionally lays the ground work for a stronger argument for electric-powered transit than they explicitly state.  CATO argues that locking in current levels of energy and carbon intensity in long-lived trains sacrifices the opportunity to embrace more efficient technology in the future.  I wouldn&#8217;t be shocked if, over the next few decades, the energy and carbon intensity of electric energy drops at a faster rate than energy and carbon intensity drops for autos.  If one accepts this, it means electric trains are preferable to fuel-efficient cars (and even if it is not true, the opportunity for advances in electric generation, even if at a slower rate than autos, argues for electric transit rather than diesel.</p>
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		<title>By: Hayden</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3112</link>
		<dc:creator>Hayden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/#comment-3112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Cato study has some significant faults, a few of which are commented on below:

1.  It considers, for comparative purposes, one of the more efficient cars as compared to extant rail projects--but the auto fleet composition is hardly all-Prius, nor should we suppose that significant efficiency improvements would not be achievable for transit;

2.  Similarly, the energy consuption numbers used appear to be average numbers--yet they are affected by various factors, including rail line congestion/highway traffic jams and similar issues.  Passenger vehicles may look much worse during peak use &quot;rush hour&quot; times, simply because the cars are idling in traffic for long periods.  Yet it&#039;s not clear that the paper attempted to consider these impacts. (they are considered qualitatively in the paper&#039;s discussions about benefits by improving traffic signal timing--but such benefits hardly preclude obtaining additional benefits from transit).

3.  It doesn&#039;t consider the effects of post-WWII land use patterns, and similarly doesn&#039;t consider how changes in land-use policy might affect transportation patterns and reshape energy use.  Why not take a look at Western European models that almost require greater reliance on rail travel within certain regions?  Similarly, the article accepts as gospel the claim that fixing congestion will not result in growth-inducing impacts.  That might be true if there was a strong connection between land use planning and regional transportation planning, but not in this country, sister!

4.  Similarly, the article looks at a declining trend over time in transit trips as a percentage of overall trips, but appears to do this within the context of growing metropolitan areas that increasingly require single-vehicle trips (which are, of course, heavily subsidized).  The point the article is making is to say &quot;transit is ineffective, people don&#039;t use it, why are we doing it&quot; but the actual point might be more &quot;transit is losing ground to single-vehicle trips.&quot;  It would be interesting to consider this question within a given fixed area, rather than within a changing landscape that on balance is becoming more car-centric.

5.  Infrastructure costs for passenger auto use don&#039;t appear to be cited, although rail infrastructure costs are described as &quot;huge,&quot; whatever that means.  Not cited are not only the standard police/pothole/lighting/repaving/bridge/earthquake retrofit/street sweeping/storm drain inlet cleaning O&amp;M numbers for surface streets and highways, but also new freeway costs that exceeded $1 billion/mile in urban areas in the 1990s.  The article&#039;s citation of &quot;huge&quot; transit infrastructure costs thus lacks the comparative numbers for passenger auto use (Forget $7 billion to replace half of the Bay Bridge--$600+ million for minor improvements to Rte. 101 along the Sonoma Narrows, anyone?);

6.  The article states that lifetime of rail transit projects is 30-40 years, yet, for example, the Chicago el Green Line went 100 years until its first significant reconstruction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Cato study has some significant faults, a few of which are commented on below:</p>
<p>1.  It considers, for comparative purposes, one of the more efficient cars as compared to extant rail projects&#8211;but the auto fleet composition is hardly all-Prius, nor should we suppose that significant efficiency improvements would not be achievable for transit;</p>
<p>2.  Similarly, the energy consuption numbers used appear to be average numbers&#8211;yet they are affected by various factors, including rail line congestion/highway traffic jams and similar issues.  Passenger vehicles may look much worse during peak use &#8220;rush hour&#8221; times, simply because the cars are idling in traffic for long periods.  Yet it&#8217;s not clear that the paper attempted to consider these impacts. (they are considered qualitatively in the paper&#8217;s discussions about benefits by improving traffic signal timing&#8211;but such benefits hardly preclude obtaining additional benefits from transit).</p>
<p>3.  It doesn&#8217;t consider the effects of post-WWII land use patterns, and similarly doesn&#8217;t consider how changes in land-use policy might affect transportation patterns and reshape energy use.  Why not take a look at Western European models that almost require greater reliance on rail travel within certain regions?  Similarly, the article accepts as gospel the claim that fixing congestion will not result in growth-inducing impacts.  That might be true if there was a strong connection between land use planning and regional transportation planning, but not in this country, sister!</p>
<p>4.  Similarly, the article looks at a declining trend over time in transit trips as a percentage of overall trips, but appears to do this within the context of growing metropolitan areas that increasingly require single-vehicle trips (which are, of course, heavily subsidized).  The point the article is making is to say &#8220;transit is ineffective, people don&#8217;t use it, why are we doing it&#8221; but the actual point might be more &#8220;transit is losing ground to single-vehicle trips.&#8221;  It would be interesting to consider this question within a given fixed area, rather than within a changing landscape that on balance is becoming more car-centric.</p>
<p>5.  Infrastructure costs for passenger auto use don&#8217;t appear to be cited, although rail infrastructure costs are described as &#8220;huge,&#8221; whatever that means.  Not cited are not only the standard police/pothole/lighting/repaving/bridge/earthquake retrofit/street sweeping/storm drain inlet cleaning O&amp;M numbers for surface streets and highways, but also new freeway costs that exceeded $1 billion/mile in urban areas in the 1990s.  The article&#8217;s citation of &#8220;huge&#8221; transit infrastructure costs thus lacks the comparative numbers for passenger auto use (Forget $7 billion to replace half of the Bay Bridge&#8211;$600+ million for minor improvements to Rte. 101 along the Sonoma Narrows, anyone?);</p>
<p>6.  The article states that lifetime of rail transit projects is 30-40 years, yet, for example, the Chicago el Green Line went 100 years until its first significant reconstruction.</p>
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		<title>By: david vartanoff</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3111</link>
		<dc:creator>david vartanoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 04:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/#comment-3111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[about freight/pass conflicts and reliability.  The several majors RRs are all mega merged outfits who yhave in the main concentrated their operations on a few roues seriously reducing throughput capacity.  While industry/retail are interested in &quot;just in time&quot; RRs cannot/will not provide timely service with very few exceptions--last fall I toured a huge printing operation in WVa who receive inbound paper and inks by rail but NEVER ship out their finished products because the RR can&#039;t move them fast enough.  Naturally tthe same RR whinges whenever a commuter agency or Amtrak wants more train slots and demands taxpayer money to restore capacity upgrades they have removed in the last four decades of merger/downsizing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>about freight/pass conflicts and reliability.  The several majors RRs are all mega merged outfits who yhave in the main concentrated their operations on a few roues seriously reducing throughput capacity.  While industry/retail are interested in &#8220;just in time&#8221; RRs cannot/will not provide timely service with very few exceptions&#8211;last fall I toured a huge printing operation in WVa who receive inbound paper and inks by rail but NEVER ship out their finished products because the RR can&#8217;t move them fast enough.  Naturally tthe same RR whinges whenever a commuter agency or Amtrak wants more train slots and demands taxpayer money to restore capacity upgrades they have removed in the last four decades of merger/downsizing.</p>
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		<title>By: Hayden</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3113</link>
		<dc:creator>Hayden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 04:02:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/#comment-3113</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rail-freight vs. Road-freight

Here and there I&#039;ve had the chance to work with some Bay Area freight-by-rail shippers that are among the largest of the rail companies&#039; customers.  Staff have complained of poor treatment by the rail companies--inexact pickup and delivery dates, long delivery times, etc.  Given those kinds of comments, while there might be a theoretical case to be made for pax rail displacing freight rail, in the practical sense, I&#039;d think that could be noise compared to inefficient operation of the rail companies.

That is, if the rail companies are operating far below their optimal logistical efficiency for routing freight shipments, then it may be somewhat beside the point to consider the effects of pax rail.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rail-freight vs. Road-freight</p>
<p>Here and there I&#8217;ve had the chance to work with some Bay Area freight-by-rail shippers that are among the largest of the rail companies&#8217; customers.  Staff have complained of poor treatment by the rail companies&#8211;inexact pickup and delivery dates, long delivery times, etc.  Given those kinds of comments, while there might be a theoretical case to be made for pax rail displacing freight rail, in the practical sense, I&#8217;d think that could be noise compared to inefficient operation of the rail companies.</p>
<p>That is, if the rail companies are operating far below their optimal logistical efficiency for routing freight shipments, then it may be somewhat beside the point to consider the effects of pax rail.</p>
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		<title>By: Reedman</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3116</link>
		<dc:creator>Reedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/#comment-3116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[SoCal was able to rationalize spending $2.4 billion to put 20 miles of multi-track freight-only rail in a trench (Long Beach and LA are the two busiest ports in the USA). By replacing 200 grade crossings with highway overpasses, the trains move faster, the automobiles don&#039;t wait at crossing gates, the ports connect better with the rest of the rail network, the money came from a wide variety of sources, and everyone is happier. It opened in 2002, and is called the Alameda Corridor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SoCal was able to rationalize spending $2.4 billion to put 20 miles of multi-track freight-only rail in a trench (Long Beach and LA are the two busiest ports in the USA). By replacing 200 grade crossings with highway overpasses, the trains move faster, the automobiles don&#8217;t wait at crossing gates, the ports connect better with the rest of the rail network, the money came from a wide variety of sources, and everyone is happier. It opened in 2002, and is called the Alameda Corridor.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeD</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3118</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/#comment-3118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Other thoughts on CATO:

1. Passenger miles for ferry boats is not a very good comparison.  Ferry boats can travel less miles to get between two locations (though I guess Oakland to SF may be an exception, but the perfect example is Staten Island to Manhattan).

2. CATO seems to imply that you can apply averages to make decisions on future expansions.  This is a mistake- expansions/new construction should consider marginal effects, not existing averages.

3. CATO seems to suggest that the primary problem with transit is low ridership, and otherwise it can have substantial gains.  Sounds like a case for Congestion pricing funding transit as a push-pull mechanism.

4. CATO barely touches on promoting dense development.  CATO suggests that development near transit ends up subsidized, but doesn&#039;t say anything about whether that development is fulfilling demand (given the substantially higher prices to live near transit, it appears there is a shortage of supply).  Additionally, density reduces total vehicle miles traveled, which would in turn reduce emissions and costs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other thoughts on CATO:</p>
<p>1. Passenger miles for ferry boats is not a very good comparison.  Ferry boats can travel less miles to get between two locations (though I guess Oakland to SF may be an exception, but the perfect example is Staten Island to Manhattan).</p>
<p>2. CATO seems to imply that you can apply averages to make decisions on future expansions.  This is a mistake- expansions/new construction should consider marginal effects, not existing averages.</p>
<p>3. CATO seems to suggest that the primary problem with transit is low ridership, and otherwise it can have substantial gains.  Sounds like a case for Congestion pricing funding transit as a push-pull mechanism.</p>
<p>4. CATO barely touches on promoting dense development.  CATO suggests that development near transit ends up subsidized, but doesn&#8217;t say anything about whether that development is fulfilling demand (given the substantially higher prices to live near transit, it appears there is a shortage of supply).  Additionally, density reduces total vehicle miles traveled, which would in turn reduce emissions and costs.</p>
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		<title>By: Capricious Commuter</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3115</link>
		<dc:creator>Capricious Commuter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/#comment-3115</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The point that the Cato study makes might also be applied to freight: Unless the cargo&#039;s destination has a rail spur, you need trucks to take it from the rail line to its destination.

That&#039;s not quite as bad as commuter rail, however, because we&#039;re talking about longer distances for freight. Commuter rail does require feeder bus routes in areas where ridership is low.

On the other hand, a lot of commuter rail passengers drive to the station, which doesn&#039;t help the Cato study. The bottom line there is that those cars are driving a much shorter distance because of commuter rail, they&#039;re not sitting in traffic, and those things make a big difference.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point that the Cato study makes might also be applied to freight: Unless the cargo&#8217;s destination has a rail spur, you need trucks to take it from the rail line to its destination.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not quite as bad as commuter rail, however, because we&#8217;re talking about longer distances for freight. Commuter rail does require feeder bus routes in areas where ridership is low.</p>
<p>On the other hand, a lot of commuter rail passengers drive to the station, which doesn&#8217;t help the Cato study. The bottom line there is that those cars are driving a much shorter distance because of commuter rail, they&#8217;re not sitting in traffic, and those things make a big difference.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeD</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3119</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/#comment-3119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know that the argument is correct, but I have heard it before- that more commuter trains displace freight.  Capitols be a poor example because the route is still quite freight-oriented.

The argument I hear is that less freight can run when there are more commuter trains on a line.  It makes intuitive sense.

Since posting, I took a bit more of a look at the CATO piece and reviewed a couple sources for statements that seem intuitively false.  The sources are not all that great, and some citations are deceptive.  For example, the statement that BART is the only system that creates a net benefit to social welfare, well, the source excludes New York from it&#039;s figures, but CATO doesn&#039;t mention that in the paper or the footnote.

Given this, I am a little surprised that they didn&#039;t find some source that says the thing about freight rail.  The reason the freight rail issue matters is because freight rail has a giant advantage compared with trucking as far as GHG emissions are concerned.  So displacing freight from rail to road substantially increases emissions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know that the argument is correct, but I have heard it before- that more commuter trains displace freight.  Capitols be a poor example because the route is still quite freight-oriented.</p>
<p>The argument I hear is that less freight can run when there are more commuter trains on a line.  It makes intuitive sense.</p>
<p>Since posting, I took a bit more of a look at the CATO piece and reviewed a couple sources for statements that seem intuitively false.  The sources are not all that great, and some citations are deceptive.  For example, the statement that BART is the only system that creates a net benefit to social welfare, well, the source excludes New York from it&#8217;s figures, but CATO doesn&#8217;t mention that in the paper or the footnote.</p>
<p>Given this, I am a little surprised that they didn&#8217;t find some source that says the thing about freight rail.  The reason the freight rail issue matters is because freight rail has a giant advantage compared with trucking as far as GHG emissions are concerned.  So displacing freight from rail to road substantially increases emissions.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeOnBike</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/comment-page-1/#comment-3114</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeOnBike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/04/15/train-in-vain/#comment-3114</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MikeD says: &quot;commuter rail forces freight rail onto roads&quot;

Can you elaborate?  UP generally doesn&#039;t let ACE and CapCor run more trains until they pay for capacity improvements.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MikeD says: &#8220;commuter rail forces freight rail onto roads&#8221;</p>
<p>Can you elaborate?  UP generally doesn&#8217;t let ACE and CapCor run more trains until they pay for capacity improvements.</p>
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