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	<title>Comments on: News flash: now it&#8217;s an 800-mile bullet train</title>
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	<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/</link>
	<description>Getting around the Bay Area with Denis Cuff and the Queen of the Road</description>
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		<title>By: murphstahoe</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3294</link>
		<dc:creator>murphstahoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Erik - as my father in law says - This thing will pay for itself... but it won&#039;t write a check...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erik &#8211; as my father in law says &#8211; This thing will pay for itself&#8230; but it won&#8217;t write a check&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Morris Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3293</link>
		<dc:creator>Morris Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow!!  Doesn&#039;t it make you wonder if anything is accurate about the numbers CHSRA throws around. Now we have the route mileage calculated incorrectly. No wonder the Senate report is so critical of the management, and perhaps the revival, in amended form, of SB-53 is meant to replace this management team.

The project simply is not ready for prime time, ever after 10 years and $58 millions being spent.

The bond measure should be pulled from the fall 2008 ballot.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow!!  Doesn&#8217;t it make you wonder if anything is accurate about the numbers CHSRA throws around. Now we have the route mileage calculated incorrectly. No wonder the Senate report is so critical of the management, and perhaps the revival, in amended form, of SB-53 is meant to replace this management team.</p>
<p>The project simply is not ready for prime time, ever after 10 years and $58 millions being spent.</p>
<p>The bond measure should be pulled from the fall 2008 ballot.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Cruickshank</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3292</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Cruickshank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3292</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anything that gets Californians to start realizing that a few tax cuts here and there is costing them their economic security and future is fine with me. I&#039;m not an HSR booster - I&#039;m someone who realizes California is up the proverbial creek and without investments in our schools, our health care, and yes, our transportation, we are going to become Mississippi. We must, and we can, make all those investments. It&#039;s not nearly as difficult as folks assume it is.

HSR is just something I felt needed some love. Californians are embracing passenger rail so I&#039;m not convinced the unfamiliarity of HSR is going to be a problem. It&#039;s a simple concept that most Californians easily grasp. Fast service that allows people to get around the state without the airlines using a sustainable system that is independent of oil prices and helps the climate for an affordable cost.

In fact it usually comes up in conversation unprompted. I was at San José Diridon Station last weekend waiting for a Caltrain to SF and a woman and I were talking about travel. &quot;Wouldn&#039;t it be nice if there was a bullet train to LA?&quot; she asked.

Music to my ears.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anything that gets Californians to start realizing that a few tax cuts here and there is costing them their economic security and future is fine with me. I&#8217;m not an HSR booster &#8211; I&#8217;m someone who realizes California is up the proverbial creek and without investments in our schools, our health care, and yes, our transportation, we are going to become Mississippi. We must, and we can, make all those investments. It&#8217;s not nearly as difficult as folks assume it is.</p>
<p>HSR is just something I felt needed some love. Californians are embracing passenger rail so I&#8217;m not convinced the unfamiliarity of HSR is going to be a problem. It&#8217;s a simple concept that most Californians easily grasp. Fast service that allows people to get around the state without the airlines using a sustainable system that is independent of oil prices and helps the climate for an affordable cost.</p>
<p>In fact it usually comes up in conversation unprompted. I was at San José Diridon Station last weekend waiting for a Caltrain to SF and a woman and I were talking about travel. &#8220;Wouldn&#8217;t it be nice if there was a bullet train to LA?&#8221; she asked.</p>
<p>Music to my ears.</p>
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		<title>By: Capricious Commuter</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3291</link>
		<dc:creator>Capricious Commuter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Robert, on the cost of not building HSR, I believe this is certainly a valid point, one that I was pitched this morning on an unrelated project. What is the cost of not building a new Doyle Drive to access the Golden Gate Bridge? You need $1 billion, and neither San Francisco nor the Golden Gate authority wants to pay the last few hundred millions that aren&#039;t funded. If that tired old structure were to collapse in an earthquake, what kind of economic damage would result from having the main access to the bridge cut off?

There are a thousand such stories up and down the state, such as, what if we don&#039;t spend $7 billion on new prison medical facilities? What will that cost us? What if we don&#039;t retrofit hospitals? What if we continue to skimp on our schools?

Those are the kinds of things that will be competing in voters&#039; minds when they go to vote on the HSR bond measure in November. The difference is, those other things are things we already have and can understand the need for, while HSR is a new thing we&#039;ve done without for all our lives.

Again, I DO see the need for it, and I DO understand the costs associated with not doing it. But you and your fellow boosters have your work cut out for you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, on the cost of not building HSR, I believe this is certainly a valid point, one that I was pitched this morning on an unrelated project. What is the cost of not building a new Doyle Drive to access the Golden Gate Bridge? You need $1 billion, and neither San Francisco nor the Golden Gate authority wants to pay the last few hundred millions that aren&#8217;t funded. If that tired old structure were to collapse in an earthquake, what kind of economic damage would result from having the main access to the bridge cut off?</p>
<p>There are a thousand such stories up and down the state, such as, what if we don&#8217;t spend $7 billion on new prison medical facilities? What will that cost us? What if we don&#8217;t retrofit hospitals? What if we continue to skimp on our schools?</p>
<p>Those are the kinds of things that will be competing in voters&#8217; minds when they go to vote on the HSR bond measure in November. The difference is, those other things are things we already have and can understand the need for, while HSR is a new thing we&#8217;ve done without for all our lives.</p>
<p>Again, I DO see the need for it, and I DO understand the costs associated with not doing it. But you and your fellow boosters have your work cut out for you.</p>
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		<title>By: rafael</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3284</link>
		<dc:creator>rafael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Timote -

good catch indeed. According to my trusty Google map, the network with only Pacheco comes to 810 miles. Not  sure where the figure of 700 came from.

However, any &quot;HST overlay&quot; through Altamont Pass would then be over-and-above those 810, adding another unfunded $5.7-8 billion to the tab - the higher numbr applies if a spur to West Oakland BART is included. That&#039;s why Altamont-only would be preferable. However, if Pacheco it absolutely, positively must be, let&#039;s take it. A bird in hand is worth ten in the air.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp;hl=en&amp;msa=0&amp;msid=107511680599374219842.00044e26854cb91cf518e&amp;ll=34.216345,-117.79541&amp;spn=3.21117,4.630737&amp;z=8

Note that the 220 miles of additional track to Las Vegas shown are *not* part of CHSRA&#039;s proposal or even under consideration. They&#039;re purely my personal suggestion of how the completely separate and incompatible maglev project to Anaheim could be avoided IFF California voters approve the HSR bond.

Either way, Nevada would have to raise the funds for any high-speed ground link into California all by itself, the *state* of California would not chip in - though the federal government, individual counties in California and private investors would be free to do so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Timote -</p>
<p>good catch indeed. According to my trusty Google map, the network with only Pacheco comes to 810 miles. Not  sure where the figure of 700 came from.</p>
<p>However, any &#8220;HST overlay&#8221; through Altamont Pass would then be over-and-above those 810, adding another unfunded $5.7-8 billion to the tab &#8211; the higher numbr applies if a spur to West Oakland BART is included. That&#8217;s why Altamont-only would be preferable. However, if Pacheco it absolutely, positively must be, let&#8217;s take it. A bird in hand is worth ten in the air.</p>
<p><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&#038;hl=en&#038;msa=0&#038;msid=107511680599374219842.00044e26854cb91cf518e&#038;ll=34.216345,-117.79541&#038;spn=3.21117,4.630737&#038;z=8" rel="nofollow">http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&#038;hl=en&#038;msa=0&#038;msid=107511680599374219842.00044e26854cb91cf518e&#038;ll=34.216345,-117.79541&#038;spn=3.21117,4.630737&#038;z=8</a></p>
<p>Note that the 220 miles of additional track to Las Vegas shown are *not* part of CHSRA&#8217;s proposal or even under consideration. They&#8217;re purely my personal suggestion of how the completely separate and incompatible maglev project to Anaheim could be avoided IFF California voters approve the HSR bond.</p>
<p>Either way, Nevada would have to raise the funds for any high-speed ground link into California all by itself, the *state* of California would not chip in &#8211; though the federal government, individual counties in California and private investors would be free to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Cruickshank</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3290</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Cruickshank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 03:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excellent catch, Timote. It&#039;s a shame folks are so quick to seize on any possible flaw with the HSR project they don&#039;t do the basic calculations first.

Of course we&#039;re used to this - I still haven&#039;t seen any effort by anyone in the state media to calculate the cost of not building HSR or the financial risks to the state of not constructing the project.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent catch, Timote. It&#8217;s a shame folks are so quick to seize on any possible flaw with the HSR project they don&#8217;t do the basic calculations first.</p>
<p>Of course we&#8217;re used to this &#8211; I still haven&#8217;t seen any effort by anyone in the state media to calculate the cost of not building HSR or the financial risks to the state of not constructing the project.</p>
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		<title>By: timote</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3289</link>
		<dc:creator>timote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[errr... That was supposed to be

Gilroy -&gt; Fresno: 115
Merced -&gt; Fresno: 56

Central CA gets the short end of the stick again ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>errr&#8230; That was supposed to be</p>
<p>Gilroy -&gt; Fresno: 115<br />
Merced -&gt; Fresno: 56</p>
<p>Central CA gets the short end of the stick again <img src='http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: timote</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3288</link>
		<dc:creator>timote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Am I missing something?

Cal HSR website:

Sac -&gt; SD: 588 miles
SF -&gt; Gilroy: 79 miles
Norwalk -&gt; Irvine: 38 miles

So that&#039;s 705, and that&#039;s NOT including the not-immediately-obvious (cause they don&#039;t hit right at a station) branch distances. So let&#039;s estimate:

Gilroy -&gt; Merced: 115 miles
Fresno -&gt; Merced: 56 miles

So that&#039;s at least another (115-56=) 59 miles, probably more like 85. In a similar vein, the segment between the LA branch and Norwalk is probably say another 7 miles.

So 588 + 79 + 38 + 85 + 7 = 797. I don&#039;t know where the 700 miles came from, but it&#039;s quite easy to get to 800 without discussion of Altamont. Let&#039;s not get ahead of ourselves here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I missing something?</p>
<p>Cal HSR website:</p>
<p>Sac -&gt; SD: 588 miles<br />
SF -&gt; Gilroy: 79 miles<br />
Norwalk -&gt; Irvine: 38 miles</p>
<p>So that&#8217;s 705, and that&#8217;s NOT including the not-immediately-obvious (cause they don&#8217;t hit right at a station) branch distances. So let&#8217;s estimate:</p>
<p>Gilroy -&gt; Merced: 115 miles<br />
Fresno -&gt; Merced: 56 miles</p>
<p>So that&#8217;s at least another (115-56=) 59 miles, probably more like 85. In a similar vein, the segment between the LA branch and Norwalk is probably say another 7 miles.</p>
<p>So 588 + 79 + 38 + 85 + 7 = 797. I don&#8217;t know where the 700 miles came from, but it&#8217;s quite easy to get to 800 without discussion of Altamont. Let&#8217;s not get ahead of ourselves here.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Cruickshank</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3287</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Cruickshank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And yet nobody is discussing the cost of not building HSR. Neither the state senate, nor this blog, nor the HSR deniers are discussing the financial risks involved with the project - they assume the only risk comes with building it, and are willfully ignoring the far larger risks of not building it.

The quibbling over numbers is specifically designed to obfuscate that. At least the CHSRA is providing some guidelines - the HSR opponents have literally nothing else to offer the state for a solution to our mobility problems and fuel prices.

It&#039;s as if HSR is being assessed in a time warp, where it&#039;s forever 1995. It is not a credible way to deal with the project.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yet nobody is discussing the cost of not building HSR. Neither the state senate, nor this blog, nor the HSR deniers are discussing the financial risks involved with the project &#8211; they assume the only risk comes with building it, and are willfully ignoring the far larger risks of not building it.</p>
<p>The quibbling over numbers is specifically designed to obfuscate that. At least the CHSRA is providing some guidelines &#8211; the HSR opponents have literally nothing else to offer the state for a solution to our mobility problems and fuel prices.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s as if HSR is being assessed in a time warp, where it&#8217;s forever 1995. It is not a credible way to deal with the project.</p>
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		<title>By: rafael</title>
		<link>http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/2008/06/23/news-flash-now-its-an-800-mile-bullet-train/comment-page-1/#comment-3282</link>
		<dc:creator>rafael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ibabuzz.com/transportation/?p=688#comment-3282</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the vexed issue of Altmont vs. Pacheco: the southern route has an SF-LA linea haul time of 2:38. The only eastern route in which every train serves both ends of the SF peninsula without a new Bay crossing comes in at 2:46 (if Santa Clara/SJC is the South Bay station) or 2:52 (if San Jose Diridon is). CHSRA claims 3:17, but that implies forcing trains to wait almost half an hour in San Jose for no good reason.

Construction cost projections - if you choose to believe at least their relative ratios - are comparable. Note that the estimates for the Pacheco options include the Central Valley section between Chowchilla and roughly Stockton airport.

What is different is that Altamont does a much better job of serving the future Northern California megaregion in addition to nearly comparable performance into Southern California. There&#039;s absolutely no need to build any &quot;HST commuter overlay&quot; for an extra $8 billion if Pacheco is abandoned. Of course, Parsons Brinkerhoff want to maximize the business opportunity...

The problem appears to be that CHSRA has held fast to its original remit of an SF-LA starter line. It grudgingly accepted project bloat to include Sacramento and San Diego, in order to build a broad enough base of support for the bond measure. However, expanding the network definition wasn&#039;t just about letting more people benefit from the north-south link.

It was also - indeed, primarily - about serving passengers traveling within California&#039;s two emerging mega-regions. Indeed, that concept never really entered into the Authority&#039;s thinking, even though it has come to see the car - not aircraft - as the primary competition for high speed rail. For evidence, look no further than the fact that CHSRA is not even considering a shortcut for travel between San Diego and Anaheim, e.g. along highway 57 south and west of Pomona. It merely noted that upgrading the Amtrak/freight coast line to dual track might be useful and then promptly scoped it out of further consideration.

CHSRA&#039;s own ridership study suggests that total inter-regional trips between the megaregions forecast for 2030 are dwarfed by more local travel there and within the Central Valley. IMHO, it would make sense to switch from a single SF-LA starter line to two smaller ones linking SF-SJ-Sacramento via Altamont Pass and San Diego-LA-Orange County, respectively. The north-south link is definitely needed and, network growth should proceed as rapidly as possible toward Tehachapi Pass in phases 2 and 3.

Exploratory tunneling in Soledad Canyon and at Tehachapi Pass should start early, though - the geology there could hold a few nasty surprises.

http://www.spur.org/newsletters/1107Urbanist.pdf
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/image/chsr/20080128160332_PT1_Meeting_Feb07.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the vexed issue of Altmont vs. Pacheco: the southern route has an SF-LA linea haul time of 2:38. The only eastern route in which every train serves both ends of the SF peninsula without a new Bay crossing comes in at 2:46 (if Santa Clara/SJC is the South Bay station) or 2:52 (if San Jose Diridon is). CHSRA claims 3:17, but that implies forcing trains to wait almost half an hour in San Jose for no good reason.</p>
<p>Construction cost projections &#8211; if you choose to believe at least their relative ratios &#8211; are comparable. Note that the estimates for the Pacheco options include the Central Valley section between Chowchilla and roughly Stockton airport.</p>
<p>What is different is that Altamont does a much better job of serving the future Northern California megaregion in addition to nearly comparable performance into Southern California. There&#8217;s absolutely no need to build any &#8220;HST commuter overlay&#8221; for an extra $8 billion if Pacheco is abandoned. Of course, Parsons Brinkerhoff want to maximize the business opportunity&#8230;</p>
<p>The problem appears to be that CHSRA has held fast to its original remit of an SF-LA starter line. It grudgingly accepted project bloat to include Sacramento and San Diego, in order to build a broad enough base of support for the bond measure. However, expanding the network definition wasn&#8217;t just about letting more people benefit from the north-south link.</p>
<p>It was also &#8211; indeed, primarily &#8211; about serving passengers traveling within California&#8217;s two emerging mega-regions. Indeed, that concept never really entered into the Authority&#8217;s thinking, even though it has come to see the car &#8211; not aircraft &#8211; as the primary competition for high speed rail. For evidence, look no further than the fact that CHSRA is not even considering a shortcut for travel between San Diego and Anaheim, e.g. along highway 57 south and west of Pomona. It merely noted that upgrading the Amtrak/freight coast line to dual track might be useful and then promptly scoped it out of further consideration.</p>
<p>CHSRA&#8217;s own ridership study suggests that total inter-regional trips between the megaregions forecast for 2030 are dwarfed by more local travel there and within the Central Valley. IMHO, it would make sense to switch from a single SF-LA starter line to two smaller ones linking SF-SJ-Sacramento via Altamont Pass and San Diego-LA-Orange County, respectively. The north-south link is definitely needed and, network growth should proceed as rapidly as possible toward Tehachapi Pass in phases 2 and 3.</p>
<p>Exploratory tunneling in Soledad Canyon and at Tehachapi Pass should start early, though &#8211; the geology there could hold a few nasty surprises.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.spur.org/newsletters/1107Urbanist.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.spur.org/newsletters/1107Urbanist.pdf</a><br />
<a href="http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/image/chsr/20080128160332_PT1_Meeting_Feb07.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/image/chsr/20080128160332_PT1_Meeting_Feb07.pdf</a></p>
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