124

Polling on the A’s in Fremont

I have no answers for who’s polling people in Fremont about the A’s. I just called Lew Wolff, and he said it’s not the team, and he doesn’t know who it would be.

Bob Wasserman said he knows someone who got called by a pollster, but he doesn’t know who’s sponsoring the poll.

Matt Artz

  • bbox231

    I absolutely agree with Marty’s statement that we need to step up and start acting like a major resident of the Bay Area community !

    Marty draws a fair comparison and describes an evolution of cities considerably larger than ours. SF and San Jose possess many amenities not found in our city. Both operate public airports for example. As marty points out, it might be wise to learn from their approach to development and planning.

    Neither S.F. nor S.J. plopped a stadium down in the midst of their fledgling suburban community as a precursor or initiator of growth – - lots of other priorities preceded their respective ballparks.

    In each case that Marty sites loads of successful redevelopment activities in separate districts created a city unified by name, but separated by districts. Each district was unique in their social makeup. Successful and hard working city managers and staff and Council leadership partnered with LOCAL businesses and citizens to enhance and polish the richness of each of these unique districts. Sufficiently so that many became attractive to the out-of-towners that marty alludes to.

    Contrast the evolution of these two successful cities with the preoccupation of our leaders who have proferred a vision of a “central downtown location” or more recently, a common focal point (stadium) which is to bequeath residents some mystical and missing ingrediant which will transform our city from dull and dreary into “world class”.

    Contrast the RESULTS of RDA expenditures in San Jose or San Francisco with that of Fremont; which has been stuck in the proverbial Centerville mud for . . . . how many years now ?

    Marty – it is not the absence of a stadium that holds us back.

  • Anon101

    …it’ the lack of leadership that values a truly transparent public participator procees that holds Fremont back!

  • Gus Morrison

    Like Pavlov’s dogs, any mention of a stadium starts people salivating. If people would just stop reacting, maybe Matt or someone else would open a new thread and we could argue about something else for a change. No one is convincing anyone else. Minds are set in concrete (including mine) and this is all an exercise in futility.

  • Anon101

    In all respect Gus, this is about more than the stadium: it has to do with how you were robbed of votes in the last election – by the City Manager witholding the news about WS as an alternative location for the stadium until after the last election so as to not loose votes for the Mayor (previously his emploee in Tracy) …and it has to do with FULL disclosure going into the next election.

  • bbox231

    The stadium question certainly affects other commmunities beyond ours, Gus. And at the end of the day, you and others who feel they have nothing to gain – - – can choose to look elsewhere.

    Just as the lack of a stadium isn’t (IMHO) a major hinderance to our future success, there is absolutely nothing that prevents Matt from opening new topics and nothing which requires you or others to participate or not.

    Sorry you find your time or energies somehow wasted.

  • Swamp Squid

    B in the box, Gus and all of the“anti-stadium thinkers out yonder … Time to play ball!

    “I pity the fool who could doubt that millions of fans spending cash money at the idyllic setting of Cisco Field will not increase economic growth of Fremont?” (Efrem Zimbalist, Jr -2009)

    “The most significant contribution of sports is likely to be in the area of intangibles. The image of a city is certainly affected by the presence of
    professional franchises” (Baade, 1996: 35).

    The “’psychological health’ of a city is just as important as its fiscal condition. Thus, investment in cultural and recreational activities is a common and expected practice of municipal government” (Johnson, 1986: 423).

    Events at sports stadiums have the potential for attracting large crowds from outside the core. Spending could conceivably spill outside the stadium to other commercial activities in the city. If the stadium can be used for enough near-capacity events, the benefits to the city could be substantial. Public officials have bought into this logic, and, thus stadiums are often viewed as an economic development tool for reclaiming urban activities that have been lost to the suburbs.
    (Baade and Dye, 1988: 266).

    That’s a bingo!

  • bbox231

    Wonderful sentiments, SS -

    Happy new year to you and yours !

  • Anon101

    Amen!

  • Vinnie Bacon

    Squid,

    I appreciate you’re trying to research your side of the issue. However, I didn’t find your quotes convincing.

    1) You should end with a joke not lead with it. At first glance I thought all of your quotes were made up.

    2) Baade’s point is that there are few measurable (i.e. tangible) benefits leaving only intangible benefits. Are we supposed to go through all of the headaches and costs of a ball park on the hopes that these intangible benefits become something real?

    3) I agree with this sentiment. But it hardly leads to the conclusion that we should go out and get a ball park. (Or a water park for that matter.) While we should spend on these things, we should also spend wisely.

    4) I’m surprised you picked Baade for your only two relevant quotes. Baade is NOT on your side of this debate. I couldn’t find the full article you mentioned but did find the two references to it below.

    ” … Baade (in particular) and Dye have come to be associated with the anti-stadium view. … In this piece Baade and Dye argue quite vehemently against the financing of stadia by local governments.”

    http://mailer.fsu.edu/~tchapin/garnet-tchapin/stadia/theory.html

    “On the sport facility side, numerous researchers have examined the relationship between new facilities and economic growth in metropolitan areas (Baade & Dye, 1990; Rosentraub, 1994; Baade, 1996; Noll & Zimbalist, 1997; Coates & Humphreys, 1999). In every case, independent analysis of economic impacts made by newly built stadiums and arenas has uniformly found no statistically significant positive correlation between sport facility construction and economic development (Siegfried & Zimbalist, 2000).”

    http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/upon-further-review-examination-sporting-event-economic-impact-studies

    I also found three quotes from Baade himself.

    “After a thorough examination of an unprecedented quantity of data related to professional sports and host area per capita personal income, the author finds no factual basis for the conventional argument that professional sports stadiums and teams have a significant impact on a region’s economic growth.”

    http://www.cppa.utah.edu/Perspectives/v2i7_Baadeforpub.pdf

    “Do professional sports increase income and create jobs in amounts that justify the behavior of cities? The evidence detailed in this paper fails to support such a rationale.”

    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119833113/abstract

    “The evidence compiled during more than a decade of research strongly suggests a new baseball stadium will exercise little if any economic impact on the metropolitan Boston economy.”

    http://www.savefenwaypark.com/baade/BaadeReport.htm

    Finally, I found a paper that analyzed the economic effect of the 1994 baseball strike that Gus had mentioned:

    “The most important finding is that the strike had little, if any, economic impact on host cities. Retail trade appeared to be almost completely unaffected by the strike, …”

    http://uar.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/32/2/157

    This is indicative of the research that FCN, Gus, and others have done which have led them to question whether a ball park will have a positive impact on the economy of Fremont.

  • Marty

    You don’t get it, Vinnie. Some of us think you and the FCN will have a negative impact on Fremont because you have no ideas and oppose every development that ends up on Fremont’s plate.

  • Californiaguy

    Marty,
    These people Gus, FCN, Vinnie, present data, facts, references.
    All you present is innuendoes’ , half truths, inflammatory statements
    Which is your right.
    Why are you so angry and vindictive? I do not think you get it!

  • Marty

    Should I be *happy* that the advocacy group who denied Fremont a ballpark because of their self interests will be trying to install a candidate who will continue to work against mine?

    I am not disputing the studies that Vinnie links to (though I bet they’re conducted by anti-development academics). I am disputing the fact that people in Fremont give a hoot, as don’t most people from 30 major cities around the country.

  • Perry Masonary

    Regarding your comment 96, Gus, do I gather that we should not continue to discuss issues of local impact simply because there are two clearly defined sides? By that reasoning, we would never pursue peace in any area of conflict.

    While it is true that some opinions will never be changed, not every comment is written with the true believer in mind; some are directed to those who are still “on the fence”.

    And how else do you learn the relative strengths and weaknesses of your adversary’s case? Presenting logical arguments in support of your beliefs is good practice for life. Like they tell you in law school, defend your position as to the best of your ability, and never ever give up (unless you get a really good settlement or plea offer).

    Since it’s the season, I’m reminded of my dear grandmother’s saying “‘If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, what a wonderful Christmas it would be”. When it comes to the stadium, so many of the “pro” arguments are liberally peppered with “Ifs and buts”, as opposed to the citations of the “con” side.

    There’s another famous quote that also seems to apply: “”If the facts are on your side, bang on the facts. If the law is on your side, bang on the law. If neither the facts nor the law are on your side, bang on the table.” I think that’s what you’re seeing here, Californiaguy.

    That being said, it would be nice to discuss something new. It is my sincere hope that this issue has succumbed to the ignominious death it so richly deserves. There are so many other things we can all fight about ;)

  • Niles Baxter

    If Mr. Squid could clear something up for me from his post #99 – What does Efrem Zimbalist Jr. know about baseball stadiums, suburban planning or local economics? The “77 Sunset Strip” guy? The guy from the old “FBI” TV series? Stephanie Zimbalist’s father? Now that Mr. Zimbalist is paraphrasing Mr. T, we’re supposed to believe that he’s an expert on the business of baseball? Does he own a share of a team or what? Everybody’s entitled to an opinion, but what makes his more valid than any other?

  • Niles Baxter

    Also re: post #99

    “The most significant contribution of sports is likely to be in the area of intangibles. The image of a city is certainly affected by the presence of
    professional franchises” (Baade, 1996: 35).

    The quote says that a professional sports franchise will affect the image of a city – it doesn’t specify whether that contribution will be positive or negative.

    Also, some alternative terms for “intangible” are “immaterial”, “vague, and “fleeting”. Not the best basis for the construction of a large project like a stadium.

    Municipal government certainly should invest in cultural and recreational activities, but that investment must pay long-term dividends. The city should not speculate with the people’s money.

  • Sootless

    Much thanks for your abridged Tolstoy post #102. Here’s a few back at ya…

    “You don’t get it, Vinnie “
    -Marty #103

    Niles Baxter is kinda getting it. And you gotta admit Stephanie Z (Great Hair) was really hot back in the day…
    Yes, Niles B baseball in Fremont would be VERY POSITIVE!

    “With a fully operational facility in 2014, the ballpark would produce $130 million in annual economic impact and approximately 1,000 new jobs paying wages of more than $62 million, according to the report. Over a 30-year period, the cumulative economic impact would total $2.9 billion and personal wages paid exceeding $1.3 billion.”
    -City of San Jose/Marketwire – September 3, 2009

    “And then there are nine major league sports franchises doing business in Florida. They are the second largest economic entity producing tax dollars, approximately $143 million for state and local governments.”
    -TheLedger.com 01-26-2006.

    “The game is popular. Clubs have done a good job in marketing their product and developing stadiums that are destination points.
    -CNNMoney.com 10-25-2007

    And here’s one for all you nay sayers. Don’t know if your a sports fan Vinnie but didn’t I see you eating peanuts and cracker jack at Dr. Gs a few week ago? Grandma Renehan would be proud even if Nancy and I had to pick up all the shells you left under the sofa.

    “If you truly love the game of baseball, there are still many employment opportunities in and around the ballpark,” Selig said. “We always need ticket-takers, hot-dog vendors, grounds-crew members, and bat boys. Just because you can’t be a baseball player doesn’t mean you can’t be an important part of the game.”

    ONION SPORTS 02-22-07

  • Swamp Squid

    Much thanks for your abridged Tolstoy post #102. Here’s a few back at ya…

    “You don’t get it, Vinnie “
    -Marty #103

    Niles Baxter is kinda getting it. And you gotta admit Stephanie Z (Great Hair) was really hot back in the day…
    Yes, Niles B it would baseball would be VERY POSITIVE!

    “With a fully operational facility in 2014, the ballpark would produce $130 million in annual economic impact and approximately 1,000 new jobs paying wages of more than $62 million, according to the report. Over a 30-year period, the cumulative economic impact would total $2.9 billion and personal wages paid exceeding $1.3 billion.”
    -City of San Jose/Marketwire – September 3, 2009

    “And then there are nine major league sports franchises doing business in Florida. They are the second largest economic entity producing tax dollars, approximately $143 million for state and local governments.”
    -TheLedger.com 01-26-2006.

    “The game is popular. Clubs have done a good job in marketing their product and developing stadiums that are destination points.
    -CNNMoney.com 10-25-2007

    And here’s one for all you nay sayers. Don’t know if your a sports fan Vinnie but didn’t I see you eating peanuts and cracker jack at Dr. Gs a few week ago? Grandma Renehan would be proud even if Nancy and I had to pick up all the shells you left under the sofa.

    “If you truly love the game of baseball, there are still many employment opportunities in and around the ballpark,” Selig said. “We always need ticket-takers, hot-dog vendors, grounds-crew members, and bat boys. Just because you can’t be a baseball player doesn’t mean you can’t be an important part of the game.”

    ONION SPORTS 02-22-07

  • VOR

    Psssst…SS, Onion Sports is just a joke. But, you knew that, right?

  • bbox231

    VOR – re Post 109 and 110
    LOL – I *do* think SS quite seriously thought they were making a significant point in their favor . . .

    dontcha think the A’s would really LOVE the Fremont conversations to go the heck away . . . . . what was it Abe L. said about “Better to remain silent . . .. .” ?

    Thanks to PM re post 106 . . . . I was a little surprised at Gus’ seeming frustration with the ongoing dialogue.

    I’m pleased that SOME *get it* – . . . in this day and age of “sound bite” research, most lurkers will – at best – catch the last entry or two or three on a topic of interst and draw a conclusion . . . . Watch the morning news for more than 15 minutes sometime – - kinda the same thing for the exact same reasons. Thank you.

  • Bruce

    Onion Sports has several funny baseball related articles right now, including one about Abner Doubleday…

    BB, I’m just now reading Shelby Foote’s book on the Civil War. I don’t recall the exact Lincoln quote but I get the reference. Basicly, avoid stirring your enemies up until you are ready for them.

  • sootless

    “Looks like B in the Box missed last nights episode of THE FACTOR… and that guarantees to makes him a grumpy boy!”
    (Baade, Dye, Zimbalist and Young 12-20-2012)

    “Whip it…Whip it good”
    -DEVO

    A friend is one who has the same enemies as you have.
    -Abraham Lincoln

    “The truth is more important than the facts.”
    (Frank Lloyd Wright)

    That’s a Bingo!

  • bbox231

    Bruce – Hmmm – that’s not quite what I had in mind –

    it was Abe Lincoln and as best as I can remember it goes –
    “Better to remain silent and be THOUGHT a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.”

    Maybe just my mis-reading of their assertions but this anti-stadium crowd certainly has removed all doubt many times over for me . . . . .. . . . I’m certain that Wolfe, Wasserman, and Wieckowski are very, very proud of the efforts of this group.

  • sootless

    Bruce – Hmmm – Abe could have been referring to B in the Box when he said …
    “He can compress the most words into the smallest ideas better than any man I ever met.”

  • Julie

    I agree that Fremont is more of a boring characterless bedroom community that it should or could be. But that does not lead me to the conclusion that we need a stadium. How would a stadium all of a sudden make Fremont a cool place? It takes a lot more than plopping down a stadium/shopping mall/condo complex to make a place cool.