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K-Mart or Mississippi Bullet?

Be honest. Who would you rather have? Kevin Martin or Monta Ellis.
Both are shooting guards. Both are dynamic scorers. Both have defensive weaknesses.
After the Kings-Warriors game in Oakland, I would’ve said Monta. After Tuesday’s game at Arco, I’m not so sure.
Ellis is electrifying and has so much room for growth. Martin is a bit more versatile, especially on offense and has the size advantage.
Who would you take? I really am torn.

Marcus Thompson

  • JustPuked

    Really? Kevin is a nice player but Monta is a more efficient player and has a must higher upside. I get on him a lot for not fighting through screens (they don’t switch with Monta as much because unlike Baron, he doesn’t have the weight to keep guys out of the lane), not getting out on shooters and sometimes losing his place in the defensive rotation, but on the up side, he’s a remarkable rebounder for his size, and he’s in the top ten in steals. I take Ellis and it’s no contest two years from now.

  • Le

    JustPuked is on the dot! Don’t forget, KMart is the best offensive player on that team so they run plays for him. The W’s entire team is an offensive machine so Ellis scores when he can. You put Monte on the Kings instead of KMart, the decision is much easier.

    Marcus. I read yesterday that Memphis is considering to make an offer to Monte big money to play for them next year. Have you heard that rumor? If true you think we have a decent chance of losing him since the W’s may not enough cap space to match Memphis? Especially since we need to resign Biedrins and extend Baron’s contract.

  • manhattanproj

    i take kevin martin any day. why? because he’s a true SG. if you look at the things that monta can do, martin can do them as well. slashing to the hoops, mid-range, explosiveness, quickness, rebounding, etc. monta is probably a better finisher around the rim. but kevin martin has the size to be a 2 (no baron dependency syndrome) and he has range, unlimited range on his shot. he’s a legit 3 point threat. martin is also an underrated defensive player. he at least put in the effort whereas ellis doesnt. he get steals with his length. remember the series he had against the spurs in the playoff 2 years ago. he was a pretty disruptive force. martin has all star potential as a 2 guard.

    so martin over monta as your SG. unless monta develop his PG skills, his upside as a SG is very limited. unlike what justpuked said, 2 years from now, if monta doesnt develop as a PG and w’s dont have baron, monta can only be the 6th man in the mold of barbosa.

  • Twinkie defense

    Monta.

  • Twinkie defense

    Manhattanproj, yeah, K-Mart is a 2-guard: dime a dozen. Monta is a combo guard. He already has much more ball distribution, get your teammates involved skills than K-Mart. And he’s still young, hopefully he can ratchet up those abilities as time goes on.

    Le, it doesn’t matter what Memphis, or any team, offers Monta, because he’s a RESTRICTED free agent, meaning the Warriors can match ANY salary offered, without regard to the cap.

    Worst case is, Monta is offered a big DECLINING contract, because Warriors’ breathing room under the luxury tax next season will be tight. But that just means they match, and have to pay the tax next season.

    Monta’s going nowhere. Book it!

  • Marcus

    The Warriors can match any offer, but that was certainly good news for Monta. He was in a precarious position, though. Teams are very hesitant to make offers to restricted free agents, especially when they know the team will match. Their money is locked up for seven days when they make an offer, and they could miss out on someone else, only to have the team match their offer. Plus, because of the team’s ability to match, outsiders have to offer above market to try to scare away the team holding the rights, so they end up paying more than they had to.
    There is a very good chance Monta won’t get an offer. With all the restricted free agents out there, and the free agents, he could be left out in the cold. Everybody knows the Warriors will match, so Monta won’t have any leverage.
    He’s hoping Memphis and maybe a few other teams make offers, because that drives the price up.

  • AJ

    What the heck happened to Croshere? Is he hurt – how come he didn’t get any minutes?

  • Wilson

    Any team would be hot for Monta, but if Memphis were truly serious about breaking the bank for him, I don’t see the advantage in broadcasting the fact. More likely that Monta’s agent heard a rumor and is trying to put pressure on the Warriors’ management.

  • EJ

    in as much as i’ve been super-critical of monta, i’d take him over kevin martin. monta is a game changer. he forces other coaches to put their quickest or longest guy on him. the 2 guard on the other usually matches up with martin. monta was able to stop and pop on ross last night in la. when they crowded him, he was able to explode to the rim. he’s also a much better finisher with either hand than martin. and despite being about 4 inches shorter, monta is a better rebounder. monta doesn’t have the 3-point range (yet) that martin does, but he can continue to develop that; and when he does he’s going to be lights out from the perimeter. monta is also 3 years younger than martin and is just now learning to play with some consistency. his ceiling is scary!

  • GregC

    Marcus,

    I was actually thinking about this the other day. It’s close, but I would take Monta. Martin is good, really good, but Monta has the:
    “oh snap!”,
    “oh no he didn’t!”,
    “oh ”
    factor.

    In today’s NBA, that’s got to be worth something.

    As far as his nickname, I’d go with Monta “the river” Ellis because:

    -he is from Mississippi
    -his is cool
    -when he gets flowing, he’s impossible to stop.

  • leftyodoul

    I can’t believe this is even a question for you guys. Monta and Martin have essentially the same primary stats right now. Monta has 19.6 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.7 apg. Martin has 23.0 ppg, 4.7, 2.0 apg. As Le said, Martin is the primary option for the Kings, while Monta is the 3rd option for the W’s, which explains the difference in points. Monta is shooting 53.5% from the field, while Martin is shooting 45.2%. The only advantage I can give Martin, really the only one, is that he can shoot the 3. Otherwise- in terms of speed, shooting ability, ballhandling, explosiveness, leaping, intangibles, I’ll take Monta.

    And then there’s the biggest factor. Monta is 22 years old. His year-by-year development has been astounding. I would say that his upside is still very high, approaching Iverson-like levels; while I don’t see the 25 year old Martin getting much better. They are essentially the same player right now, but Monta is 3 years younger and just getting better. I’d take Monta in a heartbeat.

  • manhattanproj

    one thing i never understand is the “dime a dozen” cliche. it’s just stupid. it’s that cliche that get ppl drafting POB, sam bowie, todd fuller, and the likes over kobe, jordan, mcgrady. it’s just plain stupid.

    another note: martin is the 2nd or primary option, so defense keys in on him. yet he still gets off his shot, avg 24ppg, and shoot at a high %age. think about what martin can do in ellis’ role.

    monta is the 3rd option, he has the benefits of baron and jackson. defense doesnt key in on him. what happens when defense does? what happens when he becomes the primary or 2nd option without baron or jackson? monta ceiling wont be much higher as a 2 guard. and he’s not going to be iverson. he doesnt have the handle.

    i think you guys are missing the point.

  • Noel

    ALL DAY MONTA!

  • JustPuked

    Manhattanproj-

    The only advantage Martin has on Monta is three point shooting and height. That’s it. But first, defense. I’ve gotten on Monta for taking plays off but when the Dubs put the defensive squeeze on, more often than not he’s one of the guys ripping the ball free and getting lay ups. I’d label both as sub-par defenders but Martin doesn’t have the extra upside. Monta seems to have picked up Baron’s take plays off mentality but he’s able to play better defense that Martin in the kinds of spurts that change games.

    The three is nice but really, shooting percentage and points per game are much more important. Shooting percentage is no contest. As for the scoring stats, over the last two months Monta is scoring as much, if not more than Martin. The major difference is Martin has been going to the free throw line like an All Star for a year and a half. Monta is just now starting to get that same respect from the refs. When you throw in those extra trips to the line, Monta is a far, FAR more efficient and potent offensive player. Martin’s game has been the same for over a year now, while Monta is actually being considered as a MIP nominee for the second time and unheard and unprecedented honor. Which ascension trend would you bet on? Want to wager which one makes the All Star squad first?

    So about that height advantage, lets get real. Bibby is gone and Martin, just like Monta, gets the easier guard to handle in cross guarding situations. Baron makes it possible for Monta to not have to deal with getting backed down very often and Johnson makes it possible for Martin to do the same. In theory, Martin can at least try to guard the tough SG that in theory would backed down Monta but in actual games, rare is the time Monta isn’t making it a miss match in the other direction with his quickness and explosiveness. The height advantage argument sounds good but try explaining all the “undersized” power forwards like Barkley, L Johnson, Brand, Millsap, Mason, who dominated guys half a foot taller their entire career. It’s as clichéd an argument as calling SG’s a dime a dozen.

    Finally, peer respect. Guys in the league appreciate Martin’s game. Skilled, talented no doubt, Kevin is a player. Compare that to how players talk about Monta’s game. Everyone is in awe. He’s now the benchmark for straight from HS and young guards, he’s the actual explosive delivery of dynamite the Sebastian Telfair hype failed to deliver. Kevin Martin will have a fine career, and he may make an All-Star game or two. Monta is a game changer and he’s going to be making the All-Star game a regular thing starting next year. Bank on it. The Warriors will.

  • JustPuked

    One last thing, apropos of nothing. When I read K-Mart in the title, my first TWO thought weren’t even about Kevin, that fine young player on the Kings. If the name Monta is spoken in NBA circles (like this one) everyone knows who you’re talking about. It may all be sound a fury but there it is: Monta is on a first name basis with the sporting community. Kevin isn’t even the primary reference for his own his own nickname. I may be missing the point but point and choice made.

  • JustPuked

    Good god I need an editor…

  • gary

    Monta all the way. Too quick, great finisher, good mid range shot. Martin has the height, but I hate that set shot three. also, Monta seems to have that electricity that few NBAer’s outside of the superstars have. He’s gonna be a good one if he keeps his head on straight.

  • Twinkie defense

    Manhattanproj, it’s nice to have a good two guard, but a good two guard is much easier to find than a good point guard, power forward, center… even small forward. That’s where the dime a dozen analogy comes from. Good SGs can be found late in the first round (K-Mart), in the second round… even in the D-League. So even when you’ve got a really good one (like K-Mart), it’s not that much to get excited about.

  • goingforthemoney.com

    Marcus,
    Whats there to be torn about. I too like k-mart but it not even close. They both can shoot, both have ok handles, but monta is a hybrid. Once monta puts his mind to the D he’s going to be scary. Put the question to the GM’s in the league as to who would they take given the same set of circumstances and I garuantee over 70% would take Monta. Ask the player and I gaurantee you that over 70% would say monta. He strikes more fear in you and team are beginning to game plan on how to stop him.

  • commish

    Twinkle Defense and Marcus, I am not 100% sure, but I think you are overlooking something very important about the resigning of Monta. I believe he could sign a one year contract for a reduced price and then be an unrestricted free agent the season after next. That would screw us royally and give Monta a potentially huge payday in 09-10. However, the risk he runs is if he gets hurt next year–after all he is 170 pound flying twig in a forest with huge trees, and does so on a knee which had surgery during high school. I think Beans can do the same thing but his risk would be far less based on his durability and the fact legit centers are very far and few between.

    I hope I am wrong and if so, please tell me. But if I am right, Monta (and Beans) have lots of leverage.

  • Le

    Manhanttanproj,

    You can’t be anymore wrong. See 90% of the comments above and you will see my point. KMart is good and is almost at peak, Monta will work on his 3-point shooting and point gaurd skills this off season, adding to his arsenal. Remember, he came straight from highschool. Monta shooting percentage is comparable to most post players. KMart shooting skills is avg for most shooting guards. Monta takes much fewer shots but almost avg the same point total so he is much more efficient.

    In conclusion, Monta is a better scorer, better rebounder, better passer, quicker, younger, has more upside, and don’t forget, his team is going to achieve 50 wins this season. So… what was your point again?

  • Twinkie defense

    Commish, yes, it could come to Monta playing next season under the one-year qualifying offer, after which he would become an unrestricted free agent. But: Warriors want to sign him long-term, Monta doesn’t want to miss out on those extra millions next season, and Monta stands to get a bigger contract this summer as a restricted free agent – either with the Warriors, who can exceed the cap, or from another team, who can do a sign and trade with Oakland. As a UFA, not as many teams can vie for his services (because most will be up against the cap), plus… isn’t 2009-2010 projected to be a free agent bonanza, with lost of top-shelf players competing for those dollars?

  • commish

    Twinkie Defense: yes, I think you are correct about the summer after this one being the big free agency year;but then again Monta will be 22 or 23 and these other guys will be considerably older. Of course it would depend on how he played next season and I still think Monta’s basically frail frame and prior knee operation should be of concern to Monta, his agent, and any GM.

    Of course I fully expect us to resign Monta (and Beans) regardless of the cost. Sad thing to me is the combined cost will leave us with no money for any good free agent to help us take the next step. And I doubt if Cohan is going to loosen the purse strings because we will be over the cap after signing Monta and Beans along with our other obligations.

  • sincewilt

    I love your comments but… (speaking of needing an editor) mississippi BULLET, when his brother has just been shot?

  • Oldfan

    If they’re so comparable, can we assume a comparable contract for Monta…What was Martin’s extension, like $55 mil??

  • Marcus

    Commish,

    That is such a big risk. Why would he take a one-year deal and risk injury? He’ll be able to get $7 to $10 million a year from the Warriors even if he got low-balled. You just hope there won’t be someone throwing $12M a year at him. He may take a three-year deal at like $21 to $25 million. But a one-year deal is risky.

    Sincewilt,

    C’mon, man. He’s been dubbed that well before his brother’s incident.

  • commish

    Marcus, because who knows what smoke agents blow up their client’s arses and inflat their already sensitive egos with “show me the money” blather. Why would Duffy demand the max of $13mil for Beans when Kaman got $10? Beans could have been signed, sealed and delivered for this season.

    I think Monta will be signed and I’ll be glad for it; but still, he does have options.

  • manhattanproj

    i dont want to beat a dead horse here. like i said before, i think you guys are missing the point.

    just switch places. put monta in kings and put kevin martin in the w’s. and ask, can kevin martin do what monta is doing now? certainly, if not more.

    and can monta do what kevin martin is doing now? not so sure.

    ellis has it much easier than kevin martin. it takes more to do what martin is doing now than what ellis is doing.

    for those simple-minded guys like Le, i’ll spell it out for you. it’s more than just the numbers and shooting %age. you have to look at the team and surrounding players and how the defense is playing them.

    look at who the kings have, kevin martin plays against a defensive scheme that zones in on him night in and night out. he’s the primary scoring option for his team. sometimes, 2nd to artest. but that is all. on one else on the kings team require much defensive attention.

    now, look at who the w’s have beside ellis. baron davis, stephen jackson, and sometimes al harrington. ellis is at best, the 3rd option. defense doesnt schemes and zones in on ellis every game. if they do, they’ll get burned by davis or jackson. it makes life alot easier for ellis.

    and if height wasnt an issue, why is the w’s trying to develop ellis as PG rather than a SG? so obviously, it is an issue. it wouldn’t be if ellis is stronger but that’s not the case. so ellis doesnt have the size or the strength to make it as a 2 guard. at least martin has the size.

    and really, the point about the name is just plain SILLY. how many guys do you know named monta and how many do you know named kevin? really first name basis? so i guess steve nash, chris paul, jason kidd arent studs because no one in the league calls them by their first name?

  • Derek

    It’s gonna take money to resign Monta thereforethe Warriors need to pay whatever happens to be the going rate.

    As for Biedrens, he’s a good player, but it would be very unwise to over spend on him. His game is very limited and he’s not much of a diffence maker. He generally only plays 25 mins per game and is a in the top 10 centers in the league (not close to dominant).
    I believe 5-7 million a yr is fair compensation for him, anything more is ridiculous.

    Baron Davis, has been a great Warrior, but I’d take Gilbert Arenas over him any day. If the two guys cost the same, pay Gilbert.

  • Duuuuuuude

    Monta is going to be a star. the person I would worry about is Baron Davis, who has a history of getting tempermental when his contract is up, and it is up at the end of the yr. I can See the W’s doing a sign and trade with him. Baron has a history of injury, this yr he has been healthy, but with Andris, and Monta in place already playing well, then Branden Wright, and veterans like Stephen Jackson and Harrington, if the Warriors could find that one big man that would be an offensive and defensive force, I can see the W’s dealing.

  • Duuuuuuude

    Truthfully this team is in the same pos Don Nelson had it in the first time, can reach the 8th spot, but without an in the paint force, it will never win big. All the teams that give the Warriors troubles have one big guy inside, someone that can dominate in the paint. the Guy I would love to see them try to get if they can is Elton Brand,(he can opt out just like Baron) while he is not a defensive force, (He can rebound not a real shot Blocker, but can score in the paint) that would the best compliment to the type of team they have. The Warriors get blamed for not playng defense, but they do play passing lanes, and they can play man on man, but their defensive rotations are terrible. Brand can play the uptempo game, and he used to destroy the W’s down low. they need a post game when the games get slow

  • JustPuked

    The primary scoring option on the Kings is Artest. Do you even watch the Kings? Teams have been keying on Monta for the last three months. Check his scoring average over that time. How would Monta do with getting MULTIPLE plays called for him like Kevin gets on the Kings? Outstanding. How would Kevin Martin do with having to make his own offense as Monta habitually does on the Warriors? Huge drop off. Talk about missing the point.

    Name recognition isn’t completely silly. The players you named are referred to as simply Nash, CP and Kidd. Everyone knows to whom you are referring. K-Mart? Not so much. If you’re game is that good, people figure out a quick way to refer to you and your game. Thus, name recognition. Martin doesn’t even have that. You’d expect more from an SG that’s supposed to be better than Monta.

  • http://www.maximumsuccess.com/larrydescombaz larry d

    monte,hands down. he,s faster,quicker,quicker jumper,faster hands and i believe in the next few yrs.will become a better defensive player.like a baron davis. larry d

  • jl88

    are you really having a name recognition arguement??

  • EL

    monta without question-

    two things going for him- upside and peer respect. an up and coming rookie pg from the east coast was quoted a response to a question- “who do you want to be like in the nba?” his response- “i want to be like monta.”

    the facts are the following and people forget:

    -monta is a restricted free agent
    -gsw can match any offer regardless of the cap
    -you can thank agent zero for this rule when it was his time.
    -agent zero was quoted to state- gsw needs to keep him here. he is the future for the warriors.

    the warriors tried to sign agent zero with a reduced one year salary with the promise for long term thereafter, but we all know how that turned out. rashard lewis did the one year scenario with the sonics and did not enjoy his stay with them. you know where he is now. with the tremendous upside with monta and anyone with market leverage like that knows they need to maximize market value to grab the brass ring.

    in reference to the top heading of “mississippi bullet,” the local radio station for gsw did a topic on monta’s call sign- the best one i heard was “M8E”

  • richard jenkins

    would be nice to see them play together..

  • Kiki

    For those who thinks that Monta is the better rebounder than Martin, there really is no basis in that. If you base it on the number then Monta’s rebounding number is only slightly better than Kevin’s, 4.8/game to 4.6/game. However, rebounding number is only meaningful when you take into account the number of available rebounds. What I mean is that the Warrior play a much more fast paced basketball than the Kings, which in turn generates more miss shots (aka rebounds). To simplfy matters, if Monta played for the King his number would be roughly 4.0/game, or if Kevin played for the Warriors his number would be roughly 5.4/game. (I did some math with my own formulas, I can share if anyone wants).
    For those who think that Monta will develop as a PG, news flash he’s not. His assist and turnover numbers are both down from last year; what it means is that hedoes not direct the offense as much as last year. What it means is the Warrior coaching staff realizes that last year was the best PG Monta would ever be.
    Monta and Kevin are both very efficient SG. Kevin scores 23.3/game on 15FGA/game, while Monta scores 19.8/game on 14.6FGA/game. Kevin shoots a 44.8% from the field, whereas Monta shoots 53.4%. How is it possible that Kevin scores more? Because Kevin is an infinitely better 3 point shooter and one of the best at drawing fouls. Kevin’s free throw attempts has been getting better year by year, from 3.1 to 7.1 to 9.3.
    The question is: will Monta will ever be as good in these aspects? Probable, yes. Most likely, not. Monta’s 3-point attemps has been decreasing each year. His best three point shooting year was his first year. That usually does not bode well. Monta gets to the freethrow line a little better this year than last year (an increase from 4.7 FTA/game to 5.3 FTA/game). But most people would address that increase as a product of Monta being more of a SG this year than last year.
    Monta’s upside is his age and his versaitility as a combo guard. As a combo guard, he’s an average PG and a scary good SG. His downside is his height (don’t give me the Allen Iverson argument because Iverson can be a scary good PG if he chooses so). The Warriors fast pace basketball masks a lot of that problem. He should stay with the Warriors next year, otherwise he’ll just be another scoring-frenzy undersized backup shooting guard like Ben Gordon, Barbosa or Jason Terry.