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Now or Later?

Houston just got much better, adding Artest for relatively nothing. It’s amazing how the good team’s in the West keep adding pieces at Costco prices. The Lakers (Gasol), New Orleans (Posey), Utah (Korver) and now Houston have all improved their team significantly without giving much. San Antonio would have been on this list if the Warriors didn’t throw big money at Maggette.
While the Warriors are re-tooling, the conference elite is getting even better. While the Warriors are developing for the future, many of the teams they are chasing are nabbing proven players to win now.
Which side of the fence would you rather be on? Would you rather swoop up the Ron Artest or Shawn Marion types, playing to win now? Or do you like the build for the future strategy?

Marcus Thompson

  • Vahe

    Im personally sick and tired of waiting for the future. Its been 14 years Ive been waiting for the future and what has that done. I would personally like to start winning now. It seems as if every team who chooses to win now, continues to win year after year and the teams who always choose to win for the future, show a little glimpse of winning but fail to be consistent.

  • Cory

    The problem is knowing when to stop building for the future and playing to win now. Look at the A’s, Billy Beane is always building for a future, but never knows when to execute the playing to win now part.

  • Jeff

    You build a team to win a Championship. Adding Artest, Posey, Eltron, etc this offseason would do very little to help get a championship. once Baron left the team the focus shifted to the future. If Baron was still here then adding a player like Artest or Brand could of help put us up for championship contention. But the way the team is built now its built for the future and maybe 1-2 pieces away from a championship in the future.

  • James

    Rebuild for the future. The West is LOADED, even if you’re a great team, your chances are still low at winning a title. Better for the Warriors to build now and be an elite team later when all these great teams are on the decline. Winning a title then will be much easier.

  • http://Yahoo! PeteyB

    There’s lots of risk in “building for the future.” Players don’t always develop as expected.

    I like what MulliNellie has done so far this offseason. More moves obviously need to be done to move up above the 9th or 10th spot in the West.

    MulliNellie’s work is not over, it should be just BEGINNING… It’s not a major coup to sign Andris and Monta for a lot of Cohan’s money – their restricted status and smart W cap management meant that the W’s had every advantage to keep the young bucks.

    The W’s need a “major” move. It would be a major move to acquire a “differentiator,” say a Nellie-style skilled poward forward or upgrade to an allstar player at any position. Heck, he could be on the roster now (Randolph? BW?). This is tough as the list of players is oh so short here.

    Garnett, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, – now those are all-stars acquired last season and allowed the Lakers Celtics to meet in the NBA finals.

    Aging allstar Vince Carter may be had by some team if cap space can be cleared – for expiring contracts, draft picks. It doesn’t have to be Vinsanity, but players that can help us are out there!!!

    Mullin did it once before in acquiring Baron Davis a few years back for little more than taking over his contract (and that worked out nicely until recently!) – and a major coup – dumping high dollar players and acquiring Jackson/Harrington.

    So some can get all excited about acquiring Maggette and Turiaf and Marcus…

    I’m still holding out for something greater.

  • Steve

    I like what the Warriors are doing. Their team is young and very athletic, and despite what Charles Barkley and many other so-called experts say about the run-and-gun (aka high scoring teams) style of play, I’m a firm believer that future NBA championship teams will more closely resemble the Warriors as opposed to the Spurs style of play. IMO, the Suns would have been champions two years ago were it not for the flukish chain of events that began with Robert Horry’s cheapshot foul on Steve Nash. When you look at the West, teams like Dallas, Phoenix and SA are all getting old in a hurry. Houston isn’t exactly a bunch of spring chickens, and their roster is full of guys who can’t stay healthy. The Clippers are the Clippers, and while Portland has a lot of good young players, much of their future hype is dependent on a player with zero NBA experience coming off of microfracture surgery which has been bad news for many pro athletes in the past. Sometimes you’re just snakebitten, but good luck usually follows good teams, and good teams usually are the product of competent management and coaching. In recent years the Warriors have been both lucky (drafting Monta in the 2nd round, finding someone to take Dunleavy and Murphy while getting Jackson and Harrington in return, finding Azubuike in the D-League, Randolph still on the board at 14) and much improved (90 wins in the last two years). If the current pattern continues Warriors basketball should be very exciting for years to come. BTW, speaking of short vs long term, here’s a very good post from the warriorsworld.net site. http://forums.warriorsworld.net/main/msgs/2105785.phtml

  • Road Orange

    Build for the future. Let San Antonio, Phoenix, Dallas, and Houston continue to mortgage their future while Monta, AB, and Randolph grow together. If BW develops, then I like our core better than Portland’s or any other team.

    Denver just gave up. If the Warriors had kept Baron (and JR), as many fans would have preferred, we may have found ourselves in Denver’s situation-over the cap, paying the luxury tax, unable to get out of the first round, and not being able to improve the team through the draft. It will take teams like Denver years to recover/rebuild.

  • Ray

    James Posey was not signed at a Costco price. I think they paid too much for an aging, niche-role player.

    Now or later? Later. As the posters before me have said, we don’t have a team that needs just one big player to take us over the top. If it were up to me, I’d throw money at Josh Smith for the long run. In 3 or 4 seasons, a core of AB, J-Smooth, Randolph, and Monta could be championship caliber. The West is just too tough right now.

  • Anonymous

    How come these teams don’t call the Warriors when they are looking to give away top-tier players? Do we have an unlisted number?

  • Niners in 2009

    You don’t sign Maggette, Turiaf, and match Azubuike unless you are planning to win NOW. Go for it, I’m down as long as we don’t trade Monta, Biedrins, or Randolph. Jack is a guy you want on your team if you want to win now. Everyone else should be up for grabs.

  • Joe

    I tihnk we should sign more Warriors Cheerleaders to the Squad, Hellloooo Hotties!

  • CalifOrange

    It’s a good question, but the Warriors aren’t an elite team…yet. New Orleans wasn’t anything to write home about until last year. How did they become “elite” so quickly? By building a young core group Paul, West, Chandler and adding role players around them. San Antonio locks up their core guys Parker, Ginobli and Duncan long term and fits pieces around them. The Lakers aren’t a great comparison. That’s like asking why are the Yankees good all the time. Even if they do have the same salary cap as everyone else in the league, where would you rather get your endorsement dollars LA or Minneapolis?

    The point is, Monta and Biedrins are definitely guys you can build around and the Warriors locked them up. I think someone said it earlier, if Baron hadn’t moved on adding Artest or even Maggette probably would have put us in the same strata but he didn’t so here we are.

  • Derek

    It appears the Warriors do no aggressively pursue elite player. The teams obtaining great talent for nothing are obviously making phone call and being active in the market.

    Mullin does not seem to be aggressive. The Warrior organization as a whole seem content being medicore vs. being elite.

    The Warriors play in the nations third or forth largest media market, they have great attendance even when they stink, yet they function like a small market team. When or will this ever change.

    Lastly; I wish they’d trade that powerless forward Harrington for a real power forward (star type).

  • Mr B

    Build for the future then let them go to free agency – this has been the strategy for the last 10 plus years.

    We had Davis and a team that made the playoffs. We needed additional pieces to make it to the next tier but decided to go the rebuilding route again.

    Look at Boston, they gambled their future and stuck with the old-timers and won a championship. The West can be won with some smart moves and investments. But you’ve got to take some risk.

    With the current youth movement, I hope that in 3 plus years, we do not look back and see more of the DunMurphies.

    And don’t count on bidding for Lebron. He ain’t coming to the Warriors.

  • Phil

    I think you need some combination, but the emphasis must be on winning now. It’s too easy to plan for the future, then lose your players to free agency or have them not develop as well as you expect.

    Baron Davis made the W’s good. His clutch shooting and ability to raise his play to the highest level when needed is the trait of superstars and that’s what the Warriors were missing for 10 years of planning for the future.

    This year’s team of young guys looks to be fun to watch, but I don’t see anyone who can will the team to clutch victories the way Baron could. I’m hoping Anthony Randolph gets some chunky playing time as he has the same sort of confidence as Baron and I think will turn into a superstar.

    Planning for the future with the young guys gives you the role players and can make you competitve, but you have to find a superstar or two or three if you want to win championships. The W’s aren’t there yet.

  • Joshua

    As a warrior fan I am ready, as all of us are to win now. However “rebuilding” now for us doesn’t mean the same thing as it did 7-8-9 years ago. Players now don’t cringe at the thought of playing here anymore. No more draft picks demanding trades, or bolting after a season. Now players are starting to want to play here. If you haven’t read the Maggette ready to play article on warriors.com check it out. Golden state offers some of the best practice facility’s in the league, we have the best fans, and awesome location, and a growing respect throughout the NBA as winners. Players notice this and I think with our strong young talents more and more players are gonna look our way. Building for the future now means something positive. At least now our team is good and getting better..I can see the light now

  • Dig

    By signing Maggette the Warriors are trying to win now. Right now the team is not good enough to be a playoff team, but not bad enough to get a high lottery pick. Pretty much in no man’s land where it is much harder to improve your team unless a trade is made. Which is why I hope Mullin and Nellie pull a big trade for an impact big man.

  • johnfree

    one piece of your question is easy. I’d rather have the new posse we acquired than Ron Artest. that guy just brings his own black cloud with him and I don’t want him on ‘my’ team bus.
    if MWill turns out to be good, we will be good.

  • Joe

    Unless an NBA team is real close to an NBA title (like the San Antonio Spurs are perennially) I prefer the sustainable and potential high-reward model of organizational development that the Warriors appear to be pursuing.

    Face it, NBA teams don’t win titles without superstars and seeing as the Warriors don’t appear to have any, I like the current model of retaining young promising players (Monta/Andris) at reasonable prices, and taking some risks in the draft on potential superstar talent (e.g. Anthony Randolph, Brandon Wright, etc) rather than drafting low-ceiling guys like Todd Fuller and Adonal Foyle.

  • goingforthemoney.com

    Obviously I’d rather be contending for a Championship, However as I’ve stated before the W’s are a top Power Forward away from moving into contender status with this current roster. The Future is bright and promising for the W’s but they will have to Trade some of the future to reach the next level. No doubt the
    W’s will be entertaining but no organization should be satisfied with just being entertaining. What a man thinks in his mind so is he! If The W’s want to contend for a championship the Cohen, Rowell, Mullins, Nelsons, Smart and the rest of the assistants, and the Player have got to start talking about competing for a championship and not simply hoping to reach the playoffs.

  • Peachruss

    Artest slapped the Maloof family in their faces using the press. Some of the big moves that teams have made in recent history (mainly K.G. and Gasol) left a lot of teams wondering why they were left out in those deals. However both of those players had little downside aside from their big contracts.

    Ron-ron on the other hand…his volatility to the Franchise isn’t worth any first round draft pick. Let alone two. In the epic struggle that is the chase for a championship, Houston sold its soul to Ron Artest.

  • EJ

    I don’t think adding superstars necessarily makes you an automatic contender. The Rockets tried when they added Barkley, and failed. The Lakers couldn’t do it last year. Neither could the T’wolves when they had Sprewell and Cassell in their primes with KG. If you’ve got a team that’s on the verge, then I can see where making a move for the one last piece makes sense.

    Artest won’t be enough to put the Rockets over the top. What they need is a point guard, not another guy ready to chuck up shots as soon as he touches the ball. Jason Kidd would’ve made a whole lot more sense for them than for Dallas.

    I’m not into the whole Billy Bean money-ball tactic. He continues to mortgage away the A’s future for another line of prospects that he develops, only to trade them a couple years later and start over.

    I like what the Warriors are doing. They’ve got a nice mix of youth and experience. It’s clear that their foundation/future is with Ellis, Biedrins, and Randolph (possibly Wright).

  • Ewok

    I think we’re set.

    But that’s not to say we will succeed.

    Gary St. Jean would’ve been a known as a great manager had his line up delivered(Blaylock, Hughes, Marshall, Caffey and Dampier). However, it didn’t so he is simply the goat.

    Mullin developed something here. With Monta, Jackson, Maggette, Harrington, and Biedrins we may have something special. It may succeed, it may not. I feel it will succeed this time, because the bench is just as competitive and talented (Randolph, Turiaf, Hendrix, Belli, Azu, Watson, and Williams) plus the fact that Monta is really a special player that is a rarity to find.

    I also want to mention the exceptional scouting department we have that saved us a lot of money. They were responsible for Azu, Biedrins, CJ Watson, Bellineli, and lately, Morrow. The scouting department really kept us afloat.

    The Factors this time is Chemistry, Smooth Leadership and Injury. If we can manage these factors, we may surprise everyone including ourselves.

  • Ewok

    As for Artest, I have to wonder why would Sacramento give him up.

    And how many teams have decided to give up on this guy?

    I have to wonder really hard.

    Inside the court, we can see the goods Artest brings. But outside the court, who knows?

    No player is bigger than the team.

  • http://ahennefer@hotmail.com blah

    Easy Answer. Have you ever heard the phrase, “only as faithfull as my options”? If i’m Chris Mullin, this is my personal moto, and as a season tix holder since the TMC days, i’d say he’s done a great job so far. I like almost every player on this team. I think the W’s will still be the most entertaining team in the league to watch, and they have a ton of potential in their future. We have great building blocks and trade bait, but we’re not desperate to make a move. As a buisness, and basketball we foget is as much a buisness as a sport, we are in a good posistion of power. You play the hand your dealt as best you can, and we’re just a card or two out of being a great team. All you can do is build the best team you can, hope they stay health and work well together. You always play to win, always. otherwise, you better not be in the game at all.

    So, to be more specific, I’d like to keep all our young guys and see what they can do, but if a Lebron or someonelse of the likes comes along well….otherwise keep rolling.

    “your gonna eat lightning and your gonna crap thunder” – Mick

  • EJ

    i’m really hoping marcus williams turns into something. i have a good feeling about him.

  • Fantom

    I really like where we are, with the exception of the point guard question and needing one other very strong defender. I actually think Jackson is a lot like artest and a lot lower maintenance, but last year he played secretly hurt and too many minutes,so his defense and edge disappeared. The Warriors are young and future building and will catch some of these teams quickly as they begin to downturn. Their big upside is player development. Harrington will have more support this year and if he is handled well he is an excellent defender, even of players bigger than him, and a better ball handler than he showed last year. He can be near- star. Jackson near star, Monta rising star, and Biedrins improving every year- and then there is a cadre of young players and at least one should be superb. A very good lineup,and Magggette will do well enough that he or Harrington or Jackson or all of the above will be tradeable at their salaries when the warrriors are ready to take another step. A very optimistic picture perhaps not an optimistic year. And no room for Artest- i think Sacramento did very well getting a very good rookie and a draft pick-they need to rebuild a lot more than the warriors do,and this gives them a capacity to start to catch warriors and (OKC) and Portland – three rising powers.

  • AJ

    Vahe, good to see another Armenian on here. Your’e right, building for the future ain’t gotten us s#$%!

    Derek, go take a grammar class homie, it is obvious English is not your first language based on your quotes.

    Mullin is being more active as a GM than his predecessors over the last decade. Instead of feeling sorry for his team because big FA like Gilbert and Elton turned them down, they said to hell with them, we will secure a 2/3 that gets to the free throw line as much as Paul Pierce and all of the top 1 on 1 players in the league (Maggette), he goes to the line between 8-11 times a game. Anyone who knows basketball, has seen this over his career. Then he secured a player in Turiaf who is the type of player that we have not really ever had on this team. THe only one close I can compare are high-energy guys like Chris Porter or Matt Barnes, over the last decade, but this guy is more defensively sound and a better rebounder, so he addresses some of our major concerns. I’m not saying he is a game changer, he is without question a high energy role player, but he is an excellent pick up and I seen him playing 20-22 mintues a game and making some critical plays that may change the tide of a game.
    The retaining of Kelenna, Monta and Biedrins, great moves, why let these guys walk, why let Keleena go to a division contender and fill their role, when he is an efficient player, shoots a high percentage, is coachable, young and eager because of his up and down career and his past in the D league. Mullin is doing the best he can, but he is doing something, that is the key, we tried everything, we threw the house at Gilbert and Elton, we took plan B with a high scoring swingman Maggette, that believe me if you asked 70 % of the teams in the league, would you take a stab at Maggette, they would confirm. So he is trying his best, the Warriors are an organization with a plan, it has been that way since Mullin arrived, save for throwng the house at Derek Fisher, Adonal Foyle and big contract to Murphy. The rest of the moves have been adequate, with the exceptions of the moves that were made to correct previous mistaked, but even those turned out ok because we landed AL and Stephen in the Murphy deal. Also, this animosity toward AL AHrrington comes from guys who call themselves basketball fans, but don’ know anythign about the game. Anyone who cannot see that AL Harrington is one of the most underrated players in this league, does not know the game. THe guy can do much more than just stretch out the D and hit 3s. He is only relegated to doing that because that is what Nelson makes him do, but truthfully the guy can run the floor, put it on the floor, take it to this basker, get to the free throw line, and defend if he really wants to. He never complained once even when being replaced in the starting lineup toward the second half of the season sometimes by Pietrus and sometimes by Barnes. We will see what happens, but I like that Mullin is not complacent and throwing his hands in the air, saying, hey we tried, no one wants to play here, instead he is saying the hell with those who don’t want to play here, now I got a team where no 1 player is really a bad player, every player on this roster is a decent, at best, NBA player. 8th spot if everything goes perfect, winning 40 games even can seem difficult, it is just hard to forecast now, lot of changes, but I think a competitive team and not a team that you would chalk up a guaranteed win against. I will be at Oracle, tlaking trash and being one of the best and most involved and knowledgeable fans at the game, as I always have been. I hope we win some games.

  • Derek

    I grew-up in Oakland in the 60′s, and 70′s. Back then Oakland was the city of Champions. Winning was expected every year. I began following all 3 teams in 1971, listening on the radio and attending games as often as my dad would take me to.

    I left Oakland and moved to SD, I was always able to brag about our great teams.

    Now its gotten to a point were bay area fans have become accepting of losers. The teams all stink, all are very poorly operated.

    Some dumb fans complain about character issues associated with star players while forgetting most of the Oaklands best players had character issues (so what).

    My philosophy is still just win baby. Habitual losing and/or rebuilding is BS. I hate the Lakers yet they never actually rebuild, yet they consistently win. The warriors on the other hand have been rebuilding for the past 20 years and never win jack. The W’s are a league laughing stock, linked to other failed operations, like the Clippers, SF Giants, Cinncinati Bengals, ect.

    Fans stop being passive, demand talent on the teams you pay to watch. I still follow the A’s Raiders, and Warriors via directv gameday paks, and sometimes attend games when I visit the area, often not because of the talent, instead I do it for nostalgic reasons and my love of sports.

    Lastly; I sure hope the W’s trade Harrington and BW of Josh Smith or some other outstanding power forward.

  • Le

    Derek,

    Nice post.

    I grew up in San Leandro and currently live in Southern CA (OC) for 8 years now. Huge Giants, 49ers, & Warriors fan. A’s are OK too. The year they drafted C-Webb, my little brother and I watched the entire season and Porky’s Pizza. I finally regain that passion when the Warriors made the playoff last season. I do not want to go through another 13 year drought. We have momentum and we need to continue to make improvements to be an elite team. The Josh Smith trade mentioned above, will be the next step.

    Mully, if you are reading, do everything you can to make this deal happen!

    I went to the Giants/Dodger game last night at Dodger Stadium, the most obnoxious baseball game I’ve ever seen. Imagine 40,000 people chanting “GIANTS SUCK!” and “LET’S GO DODGERS LET’S GO”. Very surprise to see so many Giant fans out and sporting the orange and black (brave).

    Lastly, my favorite sports moment in SoCal: ran into Barry Bonds in Beverly Hills surgery center elevator. He was nice, even asked me what part of the Bay Area I was from.

  • DieHardWarriorFan

    Great post by AJ. I couldn’t agree more. Anybody in this forum that is a real Warrior fan, and that KNOWS basketball, knows that where we are right now is the best place to be. We have good veteran talent, as well as good young talent that has the potential to be great. Artest is talented but, he is also a headache that the Dubs don’t need. Marion is a good player too but, i’m sorry anbody with a shooting stroke like that we don’t need either. Besides he would still mins from Randolph/Wright anyway. Remember the plan is to try to win this year but, also to let our young players develop. Mullin is the best GM the the Dubs have had in years and he deserves and extension. Sure he needs to devlop better contract negotiatiing tactics but, nobody’s perfect. He has made the Dubs relevant again which is something that we haven’t seen in years. (No i’m am not on the Warriors payroll) I am confident that we can be an upper echelon team in the next few years when our youngsters develop. I like this team that we have. If Monta can develop into an upper echelon pg, watch out! He does have the skills to do so. Remember, he’s only 22! Let’s give him a chance first to prove that he can’t do it, instead of writing him off first. Go Warriors!

  • blah

    great post AJ.

    Please everyone remember it was Gary St. Jean who signed Foyle, Dunleavy, and Murph. Dafted Todd Fuller, Traded away jamison for an old fart, etc, etc. Worst GM of all time. Mullin has done a great job. Keep it up.

    I’d like to see the Warriors take a shot at marion right before the trade dead line. He’ll be free to walk before the end of the year and Miami has 3 good power forwards. I’d bet that Maimi tries to get something for him while they can. He’d be perfect in the system, we’d only pay him a half years salary and could get him for little as he isn’t guaranteed (no contract). Just a thought.

    Regarding Harrington, he is crucial to our offense, as he does open it up, but he is detrimental to our defense. Why try to take a charge on Iverson when you are three times his size?

  • commish

    I am coming late to this “parte” so can’t add much except I’d like to say building for the future is what Portland has done and is doing better than any team in the NBA. Scary. What we’ve done, IMHO, is build a team of veterans and young players who might make the playoffs with a lot of luck if the younger players develop quickly. Also, I think this off season we saw big name free agents do not–at least at this point in time–want to come to Oaktown. Plain and simple. But that might change depending on how this season goes. Cohan has shown willingness to dig deeper than I ever thought he would; and Baron, by accident, gave us $18M to rebuild one year earlier than expected. And Mullin, in spite of my significant reservations, has shown some vision and good money management. We are simply not ready to win now so have no choice but plan for the future baring any major trades. Either way this team will be a lot of fun to watch.

  • Jim

    I think it’s a real question whether Houston got better, or just added a huge headache. There’s a reason a guy like Artest goes for that little – teams decided he wasn’t worth the baggage.

  • Derek

    AJ

    I may not speak or write utilizing the kings english, however; I’m happy, healthy, wealthy, and the ladies still love me, therefore all is great in Derek’s world.

    Again I’ll reiterate, good organizations do not rebuild for 15-20 years. The Warriors have a losers reputation, one year of playoff basketball in 15 years is terrible. A team loaded with good character guys is hardly ever a winning recipe.

    It’s all about chemistry, talent, talent, and more talent.

  • AJ

    Derek,

    No offense for making the grammar comment

    In regards to building a talented winner, I’m all for it. I don’t see anywhere where any fan has written that they are against star talent.

    I am a Laker and a Warrior fan. I am used to great players and great basketball and that is what I want for my teams.

    1 playoff appearance and 1 first round victory, that’s basically all we got in the last decade when it boils down to it, ….that’s terrible

    I am hoping that the organization can consistently develop into a winner with star talent

    Derek, I don’t think we go after just character any more. That went out the door a long time ago.

    Mullin went after Davis, a guy notorious for not getting along with coaches (Tim Floyd, Byron Scott),. Mullin went after Stephen Jackson, a guy who people may say has made some poor decisions, we offered a big contract to Gilbert Arenas, a guy who people may say has character issues as well.

    My point is that the going after the nice guy mentality went out the door a long time ago with Mullin. I don’t buy that crap now Derek, that was in the Garry St. Jean days partner.

    Mullin is active in pursuing whatever he can. If a big name doesn’t want to play here, he is making the next best choice, which is more than any other GM has done for this organization.

    I’m not saying Mullin is the greatest person in the world or anything, he hasn’t really accomplished crap in his tenure as well, 1 playoff birth and 1 first round victory, that’s basically it. Bbut my point is that his actions and his approach show that he is not satisfied with just that.

    I don’;t understand how any player would rather play in Washington DC or Philadelphia as opposed to the gorgeous state of California, it just boggles my mind. Our fans would kill the fans in those cities.

  • Mr B

    Hi Comish,

    Your comment about Portland is an interesting one. Portland has rebuilt for the second time, at least from what I can remember.

    The firts time, they had a solid team if you can recall – Randolph, Jermaine O’Neal, Sheed Wallace, Telfair, Ruben Patterson and the list goes on. But nothing came out of that team. I think to be successful in the NBA, you need a balance of youth and seasoned veterans -especially a big three that would anchor the team. The Ws are not quite there especially in competing in the West. I do not know about Portland this year either as they have a good youth movement but not the experience to go deep into the playoffs.

    BTW – Andre Igoudala maybe available so a Harrington and AI trade maybe interesting for a track meet offense that the Ws do well.